Certainly the dumbest thread in the history of Cathinfo.

A bunch of people rightly upset with Bishop Fellay, so they start tearing up Archbishop Lefebvre's work?

"Weak."

"Ineffective."

Derided on the basis of expansion by responding to requests for assistance by the faithful?

Would you be happier if Archbishop Lefebvre told you to go jump in a lake when you asked him to give you a priest, or confirm your children?

I find it comical that some ignorant people in this thread want to criticize the apostolate of the SSPX for its failure to accomplish something it was never designed to do (I.e., be a missionary order to bring the faith to unchristian lands)!

This is not why Archbishop Lefebvre founded his order.

His only intent was to preserve the true priesthood, and the true Mass.

Anything beyond this was pure charity on his part.

You can no more criticize the SSPX for failing to convert pagan lands than you can criticize it for failing to fly airplanes.

Otherwise, I should be perfectly able to criticize any independent priest for failing to go convert New Guinea!

Wa- wa- wa.  The independent priests are ineffective!  They only go where people already had the Faith.

Blah blah.

You should know what you are talking about before you write stupid posts and threads like this.

 :boxer:  Fighting the good fight!  :boxer:

Quote from: Seraphim

Clint and TKGS

What have they said that's contradicted what you've said about the SSPX and the priesthood?

What have they said that you disagree with, in particular?

What TKGS says is very enlightening.  They just absorbed an Indianapolis chapel.

They didn't bring the faithful there, but now they have control over it.

The SSPX is being used as a weapon against Tradition.  The persecution of Tradition has begun inside the SSPX.

What I am saying is that the criterion they are using to criticize the SSPX are not the criteria by which the failure or effectiveness of the SSPX should be measured.

The strength and/or effectiveness of the SSPX should be measured according to how well it has accomplished the goals it was founded to do, not criteria that are incidental or irrelevant to its mission.

So in this case, the effectiveness/ineffectiveness or strength/weakness
Should be measured by the number of traditional priests they have ordained, and the degree to which these have preserved the traditional sacraments.

But TKGS wants the criteria to be whether or not they have Catholicized pagan lands?

Should we also assess carpenters on their automobiles, or on the quality of their work?

PS: While TKGS may have some sour grapes because her chapel was turned over to the SSPX, I fail to see how the SSPX is to blame for the chapel board inviting them to come in and take ownership.

I guess people just see what they want to see.

Seraphim is responding out of anger and hurt, mostly hurt.

It hurts that the SSPX is even considering the deal.

Let's pray for the SSPX.  

No.

I am responding to other people who are posting out of hurt and anger.

And are therefore tearing down an organization based on criteria irrelevant to its mission.

Dear Seraphim,

What Telephorus wrote below is exactly the point of my thread, and the reason that everyone who understood what I was saying, has posted positive comments:

Quote

What I am saying is that the criterion they are using to criticize the SSPX are not the criteria by which the failure or effectiveness of the SSPX should be measured.

The point of the thread was not to say the SSPX has been failing at its mission.

The point is to puncture the grandiose delusions about its potential for success, particularly among those who think that the incorporation of the SSPX into the conciliar fold will mean a reformation inside the Church.

-------------------------------------------
And here it is better said by Bishop Williamson (and which someone posted on this thread):

Eleison Comments XLVII
Last Cartridge

A priestly colleague of the Society of St. Pius X has just written (or maybe adopted) a parable whereby the Society is the last cartridge of a hunter who must shoot to kill the monster of neo-modernism entrenched within the structures of the Catholic Church. Since it is the last cartridge, the hunter cannot afford to miss! Well, the "hunter“ may be burdened, but let me attempt to assure him that he is not burdened that much!

First and foremost, the Catholic Church belongs to Almighty God who has numerous possible ways of coming to its rescue that we men cannot even imagine. "Is my arm shortened because you men are wicked?“ asks the Lord God (Isaias 50:2). To imagine that the Lord God depends upon the SSPX to deal with the monster of neo-modernism is gravely to underestimate His powers!

Secondly, neo-modernism is surely far too entrenched in Catholics (or former Catholics) for a little Congregation of some 450 priests to be able to dislodge it! Just as the crime of abortion has become more and more normal and accepted over the last 40 years, so too has the heresy of neo-modernism more and more established itself over the same time-period in the hearts and minds of the mass of Catholics (or once Catholics). By the grace of God, the SSPX may still have the Truth, but what grip or leverage does truth still have on diabolically disoriented minds, starting with those of today’s leading churchmen?

Thirdly, what power does the SSPX have other than the – today – powerless Truth? Besides the Faith, the SSPX has neither great numbers nor great theologians nor great writers. It is holding its own all over the world, which is already a miracle, but it is fragile and in worldly terms it is advancing surely no more than one little step at a time, whereas the worldwide Revolution is advancing by leaps and bounds.

No, dear colleague. The humble mission of the SSPX is surely not to kill the storm dead (as only Our Lord could do), but to ride it out. Not to overwhelm the lies, but to sustain the Truth. Not to conquer, but to give witness. Not to be in a hurry, but to wait for God’s good time. It is His Church, and He is certainly looking after it by, amongst other things, sustaining thus far the SSPX. But He is never short of cartridges!

Bishop Richard Williamson
La Reja, Argentina

Quote from: Telesphorus

Seraphim, who are you disagreeing with?

Quote from: Clint

Quote from: Matthew

The SSPX is just an organization dedicated to the true spirit of the Priesthood -- an organization that was founded to form solidly educated, traditional, and preferably holy priests according to the ancient wisdom of the Church.

Anything else we get from them is just a bonus.

This is 100% correct.

Clint and TKGS

What?

No thumbs down on this post?

There are three words?

Certainly that is sufficient material to disagree with so etching, isn't it?

I heard a Bishop Williamson sermon in 1997 where he said:

"We do not follow Abp. Lefebvre, we do not follow Bishop Willamson, we do not follow the SSPX, or any personality. We follow truth. Remember this always, for there may come a day when the SSPX goes away from truth, and when that happens, you are to follow the truth."

Since then I've heard many people repeat the same sermon from Bishop Willianson. And today, here we are at the intersection of truth and Neo-SSPXism.

What is the relevance of citing this sermon in this thread?

I don't think anyone is disputing this?

Come on Seraphim, don't be a sorehead.

Clint said this: If I had that article [Eleison Comments XLVII, Last Cartridge] I would have posted it instead of my words.

So just take Bishop Williamson's EC "Last Cartridge" for what this thread is all about. Because that Eleison Comment expresses perfectly what need be said.


Bishop Williamson writes:
A priestly colleague of the Society of St. Pius X has just written (or maybe adopted) a parable whereby the Society is the last cartridge of a hunter who must shoot to kill the monster of neo-modernism entrenched within the structures of the Catholic Church.

The thinking of "this priestly colleague" is exactly the conceited thinking of Bp. Fellay, Fr. Pfluger, Fr. Schmidberger and others. This erroneous thinking of them is the reason for their insane plan to join New-Rome! Which in fact is about to destroy the work of Archbishop Lefebvre. But such are the results of delusions of grandeur.

That's why the SSPX leadership didn't like this EC "Last Cardridge" (and all the others) back then in 2008, and we know this because their speaking-trumpet named Max Krah constantly said so on the Internet, and because Bp. Fellay always tried to shut-down the Eleison Comments (see Stephen Heiner's recent posts).

Actually Bishop Williamson's EC "Last Cartridge" and so Clint's thread is dead-on about what's going on within the SSPX.

Bishop Williamson knows this, once you awaken the Catholic soul, it desires to be fed the Holy food of truth.

Very well said, thank you. This is what I meant. The good Bishop is more clever than many imagine.

1) I just asked Clint what the relevence of this wonderful letter to this thread is;

2) He responds that it has nothing to do with anything I have written;

Qoute what you asked and what I responded again, and post them as a quote, and you'll see your error.