Author Topic: SSPX Camp Counselor Arrested for Raping Boys in Post Falls ID (Read 48958 times)

LucasL · « **Reply #105 on:** October 29, 2015, 10:44:02 AM »

Very well, you are right on this last sentence. Regarding Alexandria that is a different issue for the moment. I say that I didn't mean to offend his/her but even with ironic (which I noticed) it was at least a bad comment

Ladislaus · « **Reply #106 on:** October 29, 2015, 10:48:35 AM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: LucasL
Does not matter how beautifully you try to picture your sorrow for the perpetrator.

It has become common to compete for social approval through conspicuous effusions of sympathy for disruptive minorities, subversive causes, deviants, and criminals of various stripes. That is the liberal spirit of the times. We'd have to be blind to fail to notice it affecting traditionalists.

This has nothing to do with "social approval" but with the charity towards others that God demands of us. You can't seem to find the proper balance. What seems to be "affecting traditionalists" is bitter zeal and lack of charity more than anything else I'm afraid.

While on the one hand I recognize that justice demands this man be jailed for life or even executed for his crimes, at the same time he is a soul created in the image and likeness of God, whom God desires ardently to save, and for whose crimes of pedophilia Our Lord suffered on the cross. If Our Lord loves him so much as to suffer so terribly for even these sins of his, then who exactly are we to withhold our own charity and compassion for this poor man?

Unfortunately there's too much Pharisee in too many Traditionalists. When Our Lord rebukes the Pharisees, we all need to look at ourselves. Too often when we hear the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, we identify with the publican and think, ironically, "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" instead of searching our own souls for even the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) ways in which we are indeed like the Pharisee.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #107 on:** October 29, 2015, 10:58:11 AM »

Quote from: LucasL

Very well, you are right on this last sentence. Regarding Alexandria that is a different issue for the moment. I say that I didn't mean to offend his/her but even with ironic (which I noticed) it was at least a bad comment

You just don't seem to understand where I'm coming from. If would be the first one to insist that the book should be thrown at this guy, both in justice and also to prevent him from doing this to anyone else ever again. But, at the same time, if I were a priest, I'd be first in line to try visiting this poor soul in jail to see if I couldn't try to be an instrument in the salvation of his soul. If this man were to save his soul and even to become a saint, would this not be the greatest glory to the Mercy of God? Recall the man who murdered St. Maria Goretti, Alessandro Serenelli. That to me is the most moving part of the story, even more than St. Maria's refusal unto death to commit a mortal sin, that St. Maria not only forgave him on her deathbed but then appeared to him and interceded for his conversion. He ended up living a devout life in a monastery.

Graham · « **Reply #108 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:16:17 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: LucasL
Does not matter how beautifully you try to picture your sorrow for the perpetrator.

It has become common to compete for social approval through conspicuous effusions of sympathy for disruptive minorities, subversive causes, deviants, and criminals of various stripes. That is the liberal spirit of the times. We'd have to be blind to fail to notice it affecting traditionalists.

This has nothing to do with "social approval" but with the charity towards others that God demands of us. You can't seem to find the proper balance. What seems to be "affecting traditionalists" is bitter zeal and lack of charity more than anything else I'm afraid.

While on the one hand I recognize that justice demands this man be jailed for life or even executed for his crimes, at the same time he is a soul created in the image and likeness of God, whom God desires ardently to save, and for whose crimes of pedophilia Our Lord suffered on the cross. If Our Lord loves him so much as to suffer so terribly for even these sins of his, then who exactly are we to withhold our own charity and compassion for this poor man?

Unfortunately there's too much Pharisee in too many Traditionalists. When Our Lord rebukes the Pharisees, we all need to look at ourselves. Too often when we hear the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, we identify with the publican and think, ironically, "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" instead of searching our own souls for even the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) ways in which we are indeed like the Pharisee.

I did not discourage anyone from charity. I specified conspicuous displays. The illogic of your reply, and the effusive denunciation of my supposed lack of charity, suggest that the criticism I actually made was on-target.

Meg · « **Reply #109 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:21:06 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: LucasL
Very well, you are right on this last sentence. Regarding Alexandria that is a different issue for the moment. I say that I didn't mean to offend his/her but even with ironic (which I noticed) it was at least a bad comment

You just don't seem to understand where I'm coming from. If would be the first one to insist that the book should be thrown at this guy, both in justice and also to prevent him from doing this to anyone else ever again. But, at the same time, if I were a priest, I'd be first in line to try visiting this poor soul in jail to see if I couldn't try to be an instrument in the salvation of his soul. If this man were to save his soul and even to become a saint, would this not be the greatest glory to the Mercy of God? Recall the man who murdered St. Maria Goretti, Alessandro Serenelli. That to me is the most moving part of the story, even more than St. Maria's refusal unto death to commit a mortal sin, that St. Maria not only forgave him on her deathbed but then appeared to him and interceded for his conversion. He ended up living a devout life in a monastery.

I think Our Lord did say that we are to visit the prisoner. I recently read the life story of St. John of the Cross. He was originally called John of God, and he felt the need to serve the poor and lowly due to his great sins of his previous life before his conversion. I hadn't ever read about that part of his life before.

I recall, too, hearing about the priest who visited Timothy McVeigh in jail. Some might feel that the Oklahoma City bombing was a false fαℓѕє fℓαg, but I don't think it was, after reading the account of Fr. Smith who visited McVeigh in Jail, and reading how ultimately McVeigh asked Fr. Smith to hear his confession and also his remorse for the crime which killed a lot of people, especially children. McVeigh originally refused to see Smith or any other pastor, and quite a few tried to see him, but Fr. Smith wouldn't give up.

Due to the danger to society, I hope that Sloniker will spend the rest of his life in jail, or at a monastery, but I hope too for his conversion, and that he'll repent and realize that he had no right to do what he did.

Matthew · « **Reply #110 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Unfortunately there's too much Pharisee in too many Traditionalists. When Our Lord rebukes the Pharisees, we all need to look at ourselves. Too often when we hear the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, we identify with the publican and think, ironically, "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" instead of searching our own souls for even the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) ways in which we are indeed like the Pharisee.

Well said!

You're absolutely right -- many people think "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" which is the ultimate irony.

When listening to a sermon -- especially anything from Our Lord -- we should dig a bit deeper and see if it applies to US in any way. Sure, it's easy to dismiss things as "not applying to me". But if you scratch the surface, you'll see that it DOES apply to you, just not 100%. And you end up benefiting spiritually from every sermon if you do this.

Sure, Father is specifically talking about people who don't go to Mass on Sunday. But how well do you assist at Mass? How well do you celebrate the rest of Sunday? Could you improve at all? That kind of thing.

Even if he's talking about porn, and that's not a problem for you, just change "porn" to "undue curiosity" and there will be matter for your own improvement.

Magna opera Domini · « **Reply #111 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:33:31 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: LucasL
The reason is: when you put someone's else DNA on trial (trying to understand and implying that DNA + environment controls the behaviour) you're putting God's creation on trial.

Controls, no. Influences, yes. We have free will, but we also have a nature with various tendencies. Some people are more prone to anxiety or depression or alcoholism or whatever due to a combination of their genes and their life experiences, etc. There's absolutely nothing even close to heretical about acknowledging that.

My understanding of Catholic teaching is that God’s grace is sufficient for all men at all times to reject sin. Period. Though one of the punishments for repeated sin is to be, in a sense, for a time, left in your sins.

I think there are two separate issues being argued over:
1. excuses put forth on behalf of the perpetrator, and
2. quick expressions of charity toward a repeat rapist of children.

For some others and myself there are no adequate excuses, no factors that ameliorate the guilt. Who better than someone who was raped as a child knows the ugliness and pain that he is inflicting on another innocent? As stated above, God’s grace is sufficient for each and every man. On the practical level, our criminal system is rife with that approach and has in too many cases gutted the application of justice.

It would be easier to embrace the expressions of charity toward the rapist if they had not been accompanied by the excuses. And timing helps. If we had fully processed the horror of the sin, fully mourned over the loss of innocence and destruction of the children, seen justice done in the form of a sentence that would forever protect the innocent and adequately punish the guilty, then most informed Catholics would likely be ready to turn a charitable gaze toward the criminal and pray for his conversion.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #112 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:33:52 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Ladislaus

Unfortunately there's too much Pharisee in too many Traditionalists. When Our Lord rebukes the Pharisees, we all need to look at ourselves. Too often when we hear the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, we identify with the publican and think, ironically, "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" instead of searching our own souls for even the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) ways in which we are indeed like the Pharisee.

Well said!

You're absolutely right -- many people think "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" which is the ultimate irony.

When listening to a sermon -- especially anything from Our Lord -- we should dig a bit deeper and see if it applies to US in any way. Sure, it's easy to dismiss things as "not applying to me". But if you scratch the surface, you'll see that it DOES apply to you, just not 100%. And you end up benefiting spiritually from every sermon if you do this.

Sure, Father is specifically talking about people who don't go to Mass on Sunday. But how well do you assist at Mass? How well do you celebrate the rest of Sunday? Could you improve at all? That kind of thing.

Even if he's talking about porn, and that's not a problem for you, just change "porn" to "undue curiosity" and there will be matter for your own improvement.

Much better said than I could have.

When we listen to the Sacred Scriptures or sermons, we need to listen for how it applies to us and how it benefits us. Everything said always applies to all of us ... even if in more subtle ways. We all have Pharisee in us.

Or I wonder how many of us are subtly tempted to have disdain for the Jews who were demanding the Crucifixion of Jesus. Well, every time we commit a mortal sin, we are calling for Our Lord to be crucified. And every time we commit venial sin we are calling for the Lord to be scourged (hurt but not put to death). We might as well have been there shaking our fists while shouting "Crucify Him!" And we don't even have the defense of "knowing not what [we] do".

Magna opera Domini · « **Reply #113 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:48:53 AM »

And these are not sins of weakness. Clearly, there was planning over time in the form of grooming with gifts and presents, asking permission for and arranging trips, selecting to live with families whose children would provide opportunity for his crimes. These crimes were premeditated and required a series of steps to accomplish.

Meg · « **Reply #114 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:58:13 AM »

Quote from: Magna opera Domini

It would be easier to embrace the expressions of charity toward the rapist if they had not been accompanied by the excuses. And timing helps. If we had fully processed the horror of the sin, fully mourned over the loss of innocence and destruction of the children, seen justice done in the form of a sentence that would forever protect the innocent and adequately punish the guilty, then most informed Catholics would likely be ready to turn a charitable gaze toward the criminal and pray for his conversion.

You seem to be saying that all of the factors that you've outlined above have to be in place first before a charitable gaze or prayers for conversion be given to the criminal.

So....we should not turn a charitable gaze, nor pray for his conversion until he is sentenced to jail, and also until everyone here fully realizes the full horror of his sin/crimes and also fully mourned over the loss of innocence and the destruction of children? That's a tall order.

Patrick JK Gray · « **Reply #115 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:01:49 PM »

I'm sorry, the psychology and genetics stuff is bilge. I agree with Graham -- in these liberal times crimes are fawned upon and excused with sham charity. I have not the least notion about Ladislaus' intentions. It's sin. We are all possessed of a free will. This wicked man consented, freely and fully, I suspect to a good many sins of thought and intention before the first disgusting sin of act, but in any case, he freely consented to impure and unnatural temptations, whether they came from the Devil or from the corrupt flesh.

He should hang or face the electric chair. It would be God's justice and, perhaps, would open his eyes to the horrors of Hell and bring about true repentance.

Pray for the wretch.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #116 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:12:17 PM »

:cry:

wallflower · « **Reply #117 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:23:57 PM »

Quote from: Magna opera Domini

For some others and myself there are no adequate excuses, no factors that ameliorate the guilt. Who better than someone who was raped as a child knows the ugliness and pain that he is inflicting on another innocent? As stated above, God’s grace is sufficient for each and every man. On the practical level, our criminal system is rife with that approach and has in too many cases gutted the application of justice.

You would think so, right?

But that is a simplistic view of human nature.

You say the words "destruction of children" but I don't think you know what that means because you still expect them to think, feel and act normally.

Graham · « **Reply #118 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:30:15 PM »

Quote from: Patrick JK Gray

I agree with Graham -- in these liberal times crimes are fawned upon and excused with sham charity.

Excused -- that is, excuses are offered, even if they don't purport to mitigate the guilt 100%. The important thing is to offer some excuse for the poor pedophile while pointing the finger at "uncharitable trad pharisees" with "darkness in their souls," for whom, not unexpectedly, no excuses are made.

LucasL · « **Reply #119 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:31:51 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: LucasL
Does not matter how beautifully you try to picture your sorrow for the perpetrator.

It has become common to compete for social approval through conspicuous effusions of sympathy for disruptive minorities, subversive causes, deviants, and criminals of various stripes. That is the liberal spirit of the times. We'd have to be blind to fail to notice it affecting traditionalists.

This has nothing to do with "social approval" but with the charity towards others that God demands of us. You can't seem to find the proper balance. What seems to be "affecting traditionalists" is bitter zeal and lack of charity more than anything else I'm afraid.

While on the one hand I recognize that justice demands this man be jailed for life or even executed for his crimes, at the same time he is a soul created in the image and likeness of God, whom God desires ardently to save, and for whose crimes of pedophilia Our Lord suffered on the cross. If Our Lord loves him so much as to suffer so terribly for even these sins of his, then who exactly are we to withhold our own charity and compassion for this poor man?

Unfortunately there's too much Pharisee in too many Traditionalists. When Our Lord rebukes the Pharisees, we all need to look at ourselves. Too often when we hear the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, we identify with the publican and think, ironically, "Thank God that I'm not like that Pharisee" instead of searching our own souls for even the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) ways in which we are indeed like the Pharisee.

well , I don't like this comment. Same mistakes you made before.