Author Topic: Friendly Reminder about Boston KY issues (Read 8322 times)

Pilar · « **Reply #30 on:** September 30, 2015, 02:57:03 AM »

"I'm so glad to not be a trad. Just a faithful Catholic."

McCoy, I haven't posted much here lately and I don't know you or where you're coming from but do you realize how contradictory your statement is? No one can be a "faithful Catholic" without being a "trad". Not even remotely.

Pilar · « **Reply #31 on:** September 30, 2015, 03:17:01 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

I was talking about online shopping.

If you've gone to Mass that day, you're 90% of the way to keeping the day holy. Unless you spend the rest of the day digging ditches needlessly, there's no need to be scrupulous about how you spend the rest of the day.

I've even heard people ask if you can play sports on Sunday, because you break a sweat. Actually some have said you CAN'T, because it seems too much like work. Pass the remote.

We don't have to sit on the couch all day, be lazy, or watch TV to properly "rest" on Sunday! That makes a mockery of God's Third Commandment.

It is quite easy and pleasant to sit at our comfortable desk and browse eBay or Amazon.com and even purchase stuff. We can click computer mice on Sunday without breaking the Sunday rest. The prohibition on shopping is only on the presumption that you are making OTHER HUMAN BEINGS work -- and every human being has an obligation to keep the day holy, including attending Mass. Up until 1997 or so, that was a safe assumption. Not anymore, in the case of online "shopping".

We can also engage in works of culture, such as music, art, acting, writing, philosophy, computer programming (game writing), or anything else you NORMALLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME FOR, BECAUSE YOU'RE WORKING. Anything "mental" is automatically fair game. Anything you'd think of as a "hobby" -- learning how to put guns together, wood carving, sculpting, even taking engines apart. As long as it's not for pay, and mostly learning/mental/for the fun of it, it's fair game. if you really want to have time for it, but you normally have to work instead, that's a sign that you can do it on Sunday.
It's only SERVILE "work" that is prohibited.

Again, we must keep the spirit of the law. Sunday should be a day different from all the others. But this difference lies CHIEFLY in our attendance at Mass, and in not working for "the man" a.k.a. for pay. We should all seek out careers and jobs that DO NOT require working on Sunday, unless the benefits (helping people as a doctor or firefighter) outweigh it, or it's obvious that's your vocation.

As a man involved in ecommerce, I'm here to tell you that a website just sits there 24/7 with no input from you or anyone else. Those orders just sit there until you get to them. Even the processing of the credit card is done by computers.

And while we're on the topic, it's only UNNECESSARY servile work and shopping that are prohibited. If you live in the country and travel to town only for Mass on Sunday, you are allowed to go shopping while in town. Everyone knows if he is (trying to) deceive God and/or himself on this matter. If you honestly never leave the house during the week for whatever reason (too busy raising family, need to merge trips, etc.) then it's not sinful to make use of that one weekly trip to pick up things you need. I know that there are people who don't work outside the home, or otherwise don't have a chance to do shopping during the week. Maybe that doesn't apply to you, and you laugh at the idea. But I'm here to tell you such exceptions DO exist. Which is why we should all give others the benefit of the doubt, and/or ask our traditional priests for guidance if you have any questions.

I am with Wallflower on this for sure. We are just simply not supposed to do any unnecessary shopping on Sundays. The ease of shopping online doesn't make it allowable.

TheRealMcCoy · « **Reply #32 on:** September 30, 2015, 05:30:28 AM »

Quote from: Pilar

"I'm so glad to not be a trad. Just a faithful Catholic."

McCoy, I haven't posted much here lately and I don't know you or where you're coming from but do you realize how contradictory your statement is? No one can be a "faithful Catholic" without being a "trad". Not even remotely.

No they are not the same thing.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #33 on:** September 30, 2015, 10:58:01 AM »

Quote from: Pilar

I am with Wallflower on this for sure. We are just simply not supposed to do any unnecessary shopping on Sundays. The ease of shopping online doesn't make it allowable.

Since we're good and derailed here anyhow, what I'd like to know is what are you allowed to do for the Church on Sunday?
Shopping for candles, altar wine, vestments, etc?
Cleaning the church?
Church property maint?
Or are these things only to be done during the work-week?

Matthew · « **Reply #34 on:** September 30, 2015, 11:04:24 AM »

Quote from: Pilar

I am with Wallflower on this for sure. We are just simply not supposed to do any unnecessary shopping on Sundays. The ease of shopping online doesn't make it allowable.

That is your opinion. I have my opinion. They are equal.

I'd like to how you could prove that I'm wrong though. The Church went into Crisis (the mainstream Church, hierarchy, etc. fully conquered by the Modernists by 1970) so by the time e-commerce came out, the true voice of the Church was AWOL.

We all just have to do our best before God, using reason and common sense, until the Church is restored and she can clarify such things. When she does, I'll be the first to submit if I'm wrong.

Matthew · « **Reply #35 on:** September 30, 2015, 11:06:22 AM »

Quote from: Pilar

I am with Wallflower on this for sure. We are just simply not supposed to do any unnecessary shopping on Sundays. The ease of shopping online doesn't make it allowable.

That is your opinion. I have my opinion. They are equal.

I'd like to how you could prove that I'm wrong though. The Church went into Crisis (the mainstream Church, hierarchy, etc. fully conquered by the Modernists by 1970) so by the time e-commerce came out, the true voice of the Church was AWOL.

We all just have to do our best before God, using reason and common sense, until the Church is restored and she can clarify such things. When she does, I'll be the first to submit if I'm wrong.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #36 on:** September 30, 2015, 12:37:33 PM »

Sometimes you just have to know when to admit that you may be wrong.

Unnecessary shopping on Sunday has always been condemned by the Church. You can't just say, "well we've been in crisis since online shopping came about so, who knows". It might not seem sinful since it is so convenient, but it is still the act of shopping technically.

How many pages are we going to accuмulate talking about "online shopping"?

covet truth · « **Reply #37 on:** September 30, 2015, 01:05:37 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: Pilar
I am with Wallflower on this for sure. We are just simply not supposed to do any unnecessary shopping on Sundays. The ease of shopping online doesn't make it allowable.

Since we're good and derailed here anyhow, what I'd like to know is what are you allowed to do for the Church on Sunday?
Shopping for candles, altar wine, vestments, etc?
Cleaning the church?
Church property maint?
Or are these things only to be done during the work-week?

I would say go to church and go home. Church maintainence like mowing grass, running the sweeper, cleaning, etc. is best done during the week. I don't even do laundry on Sunday although it is hardly servile work these days. I do cook which I would rather not but I can say that about the other days too.

Sunday should be set aside for God and family and rest. Even though online shopping is not servile work it is not necessary and takes away from time better spent. I always feel guilty when something I have bid on on ebay is over on Sunday. We love to go to estate sales but will not go on Sunday even though that is the day of the best bargains (50% off). When the sellers at these sales remind us of that fact we make a point of telling them we do not shop on Sunday hoping they'll take the hint. I'm not saying any of this is sinful but that Sunday should be treated with respect in a way that sets it apart from the other days of the week.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #38 on:** September 30, 2015, 01:10:57 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Sometimes you just have to know when to admit that you may be wrong.

Unnecessary shopping on Sunday has always been condemned by the Church. You can't just say, "well we've been in crisis since online shopping came about so, who knows". It might not seem sinful since it is so convenient, but it is still the act of shopping technically.

How many pages are we going to accuмulate talking about "online shopping"?

The question is WHY is unnecessary shopping prohibited on Sunday.
Matthew's premise is that it's only prohibited because it requires others to work in order for you to shop. If that isn't the only reason it is not allowed, just show him somewhere in which it is explained that shopping on Sunday is wrong in and of itself.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #39 on:** September 30, 2015, 01:33:17 PM »

Quote from: covet truth

I always feel guilty when something I have bid on on ebay is over on Sunday.

You bid on something on Friday, the auction ends on Sunday, you pay for it on Monday, the seller ships it on Tuesday. Where in that process was someone not spending their Sunday time appropriately?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #40 on:** September 30, 2015, 01:36:09 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Sometimes you just have to know when to admit that you may be wrong.

Or sometimes you may have to know when you're oversimplifying issues.

Define online shopping. Is it sinful to purchase a game that you download to your computer? This involves no servile work whatsoever from anyone, and so it's not the least bit sinful. So your absolute rule about "unnecessary shopping" being sinful is immediately uprooted.

In addition, in the vast majority of cases, orders placed on Sunday online, even if not entirely electronic, will not begin to be "fulfilled" until Monday, when the establishment opens for its normal business hours. Let's say that I enjoy remote-controlled airplanes, find one that I like online on a Sunday, add the thing to my cart, and pay for it. Nobody actually does any work related to this order until Monday. On Monday morning someone comes in, gets a list of the orders, and starts packing them to send out. Based on exactly WHAT moral principal would this kind of "shopping" be sinful? Answer: none.

Now, if I'm sitting there an buying all kinds of routine things like groceries online, then to some extent that might violate the SPIRIT of the Sunday where we should not be preoccupied too much with worldly matters, but that would be about it. This still doesn't involve SERVILE work as defined by the moral theologians (moving your fingers to click a mouse hardly qualifies).

Maybe I'll look into hiring a Sunday Jєω (corollary to the Sabbath Goi) to click my mouse for me.

covet truth · « **Reply #41 on:** September 30, 2015, 02:08:41 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: covet truth
I always feel guilty when something I have bid on on ebay is over on Sunday.

You bid on something on Friday, the auction ends on Sunday, you pay for it on Monday, the seller ships it on Tuesday. Where in that process was someone not spending their Sunday time appropriately?

That's exactly what I do -- pay on Monday and not on Sunday. It's not wrong and I'm not saying that it is. It's just that when your mind is occupied and thinking about obtaining some material things it might as well be any other day of the week.

Growing up in the 40's and 50's, Sunday had a very different feel about it. It had a much slower pace than any other day and a quiet the other days did not have. I guess it is just ingrained in me from a very different era. No one shopped then as no stores were open on Sunday including grocery stores. Gas stations were open but were not mini-marts then. People visited family, went for drives in the country, read, went on picnics, etc. You never saw people washing their car, mowing grass or hanging out laundry (before dryers) on Sunday. Of course, that all began to change gradually in the late 50's.

Matthew · « **Reply #42 on:** September 30, 2015, 02:41:05 PM »

Tom Nelson told me in Catechism class that somewhere in Europe (probably in the 50's) the pharmacies would be open on Sunday, but only the back of the store where the prescription drugs were dispensed. The rest of the store (toys, soda fountain, household goods) would be closed.

This brings up an interesting point though. MORE people lived in the country back then. But it wasn't necessary to shop on Sunday while "in town for Mass" for several reasons:

1. Mega grocery stores or supermarkets didn't exist yet. Every small town had a grocery store, and it didn't cost an arm & a leg more to buy your monthly groceries there compared with the local supermarket.

1A. More people lived in the country, and produced at least a % of their own food. In particular, those things that don't keep for long (fresh ingredients for home cooking). It's easy to keep stocked up on canned goods and non-perishables. What sends you to the store often are those fresh vegetables you need to make this or that dish.

1B. Things were more local than national, and certainly not global yet. There were a lot more viable "local" and small, family owned businesses.

2. This was before the Crisis in the Church, and the "1+ hour trip to Mass" became a fixture or a given for all serious Catholics. Your trip to Mass on Sunday was a trip the closest Catholic Church!

3. Money was worth more (heck, our coins were still 90% silver as recently as 1964) so there was much less necessity for husbands to work 2 jobs, wives to work, or families to be extremely frugal (on gas, time) just to survive. It was a different world back then.

4. People had family they could hang out with on Sunday. Today, people are spread out all over the country, often extremely isolated from family and/or other Trad Catholics. Also, even when family is technically present, they are so different from a Catholic mentality that it is difficult to spend much time with them. This might not apply to you, you might think it sounds far-fetched or crazy. Trust me, it isn't. It's all too real a situation for many good Traditional Catholics. Remove too many things they "can" do on Sunday, and they'd start dreading the Lord's Day as being a day spent in a prison cell where they can't do anything.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." -Our Lord

Long story short, God will understand. Just be honest with yourself, honest with God, and do what your conscience tells you is right. Everyone knows if they're properly dedicating Sunday to God, or if they are cheating. It's the spirit of the law that really matters. Quibbling about how many miles you can travel on foot on the Sabbath (the Pharisees worked this one out. answer: 2 miles) or how many mouse-clicks constitute servile work is something for Pharisees -- not Trad Catholics.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #43 on:** September 30, 2015, 03:52:15 PM »

some of us must, because of lack of choice, (because we live in the country) even work on Sunday.
My old Confessor (god rest his soul) who was ordained long before the council told us that Service work (food, Medicine, etc..) may have to be done on Sunday. Someone has to Cook the food for us who do not. this is common sense, how is it sinful to click on a mouse? :detective: