Author Topic: SSPX 2012 is NOT like Conciliar Church 1970 (Read 2615 times)

Matthew · « **on:** October 29, 2012, 11:21:22 AM »

To all those thinking we should leave, because "that would have been a great move when Vatican II was being implemented in 1970" should really open their eyes.

What abuses are taking place at SSPX chapels? I haven't heard of any.

Any Masses facing the people? Vernacular tongue? Novus Ordo Masses being said? Altar girls? Married deacons? Female lectors? Communion in the hand?

THOSE would be excellent reasons to leave your chapel with great sadness. But leaving because a great bishop was expelled? I don't believe that leaving your chapel is the best course of action -- unless you have other Mass options.

About the only thing I've heard is European rubrics being introduced -- the Dialogue Mass (which is a pre-Vatican II invention, and in no way harmful to the Faith or morals, or reverence at Mass) which includes *gasp* standing during the Sanctus, like the Faithful *should be doing* during a High Mass. They should be singing, too, for that matter if it's a High Mass. At our chapel they don't sing or stand, unfortunately.

Expelling +W is a grave sign for the SSPX; another milestone in its slow and steady decline. But we have a ways to go before the SSPX is as bad as the Indult, nevermind the Novus Ordo. If it's still the best thing going, you should think of Our Lord and how He ardently wants us to receive Him in Holy Communion so he can lavish His love and graces upon us.

We have one member on here (Adolphus) going so far as to suspect Bishop Williamson of being a plant (!) because he's not some kind of hot-headed Irish leader, who is all action and no brains. As if to say that if we're not "acting" a few days after his expulsion, there's something wrong.

I just have to say -- that is insane.

JohnGrey · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:53:19 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

To all those thinking we should leave, because "that would have been a great move when Vatican II was being implemented in 1970" should really open their eyes.

What abuses are taking place at SSPX chapels? I haven't heard of any.

Any Masses facing the people? Vernacular tongue? Novus Ordo Masses being said? Altar girls? Married deacons? Female lectors? Communion in the hand?

THOSE would be excellent reasons to leave your chapel with great sadness. But leaving because a great bishop was expelled? I don't believe that leaving your chapel is the best course of action -- unless you have other Mass options.

About the only thing I've heard is European rubrics being introduced -- the Dialogue Mass (which is a pre-Vatican II invention, and in no way harmful to the Faith or morals, or reverence at Mass) which includes *gasp* standing during the Sanctus, like the Faithful *should be doing* during a High Mass. They should be singing, too, for that matter if it's a High Mass. At our chapel they don't sing or stand, unfortunately.

Expelling +W is a grave sign for the SSPX; another milestone in its slow and steady decline. But we have a ways to go before the SSPX is as bad as the Indult, nevermind the Novus Ordo. If it's still the best thing going, you should think of Our Lord and how He ardently wants us to receive Him in Holy Communion so he can lavish His love and graces upon us.

We have one member on here (Adolphus) going so far as to suspect Bishop Williamson of being a plant (!) because he's not some kind of hot-headed Irish leader, who is all action and no brains. As if to say that if we're not "acting" a few days after his expulsion, there's something wrong.

I just have to say -- that is insane.

That's funny, I've never heard of the modernist heretics turning away anyone at the Communion rail, unless of course it's for someone actually showing the proper deference in receiving on the tongue while kneeling. Yet, haven't we received several reliable reports from laymen on this very forum of sacramental terrorism against pro-Williamson/anti-reconciliation laity by pro-Fellay clergy? If I'm wrong, I humbly apologize but please don't downplay it because you're afraid of the possibility of what it means for the SSPX.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:59:41 AM »

I don't think any of us should hide our views or support for Archbishop Lefebvre/Bishop Williamson.

If they try to sacramentally terrorize us (withhold sacraments) because of something so innocent, then attending our SSPX chapels just isn't meant to be.

But we should keep in mind: such sacramental terrorism is RARE at the moment. I'm not going to get all excited because Hugh Dolan got denied communion. He's the "Traditio" of the Resistance movement -- bombastic, sensational, hot-headed, not always the most accurate, etc. I'm not too fond of his tactics/personality myself, and we're on the same side!

When a hurricane devastates your hometown, you really do feel like it's the end of the world. But sometimes you have to keep in mind "it's local" and that in other places, life goes on without missing a beat.

In my neck of the woods, things are completely unchanged from 6 years ago.

JohnGrey · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2012, 01:29:32 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I don't think any of us should hide our views or support for Archbishop Lefebvre/Bishop Williamson.

If they try to sacramentally terrorize us (withhold sacraments) because of something so innocent, then attending our SSPX chapels just isn't meant to be.

But we should keep in mind: such sacramental terrorism is RARE at the moment. I'm not going to get all excited because Hugh Dolan got denied communion. He's the "Traditio" of the Resistance movement -- bombastic, sensational, hot-headed, not always the most accurate, etc. I'm not too fond of his tactics/personality myself, and we're on the same side!

When a hurricane devastates your hometown, you really do feel like it's the end of the world. But sometimes you have to keep in mind "it's local" and that in other places, life goes on without missing a beat.

In my neck of the woods, things are completely unchanged from 6 years ago.

Are any of the priests in your neck of the woods speaking out in support of His Excellency, or in derision of this miscarriage of justice? If not, and that is the common state of affairs in your chapel, or any other, it's a telling statement and an unflattering one at that.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2012, 02:30:09 PM »

Quote

About the only thing I've heard is European rubrics being introduced -- the Dialogue Mass (which is a pre-Vatican II invention, and in no way harmful to the Faith or morals, or reverence at Mass)

Ah, that possibly explains our recent (approx 1 year) experience.
The SSPX and independent chapels we've attended in the US and Canada did not have dialogue. We arrived in Santiago (Chile) last year, and the SSPX faithful dialogue everything but the Our Father. Unfortunately, for me it is so distracting that I must discreetly plug my ears to concentrate on the prayers.

Could anyone point me to instruction on dialogue Mass rubrics for High and Low? That might be a good start.
I'm composing a respectful letter to the pastor, offering my help. (part of the solution vs. part of the problem) There is a great need for proper catechesis - many are dressed in jeans/casual wear including children, women abound in pants and no veils, there is mass confusion in the aisles at Holy Communion, etc. And they follow the stand/sit/kneel rubrics of High Mass at Low Mass also.
One of the assistant priests says, in short, that's just how it is, and they don't seem to be making any effort to instruct.

Did I just hijack the thread

? Matthew, please move this, if warranted.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2012, 03:10:29 PM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

I'm composing a respectful letter to the pastor, offering my help. (part of the solution vs. part of the problem) There is a great need for proper catechesis - many are dressed in jeans/casual wear including children, women abound in pants and no veils, there is mass confusion in the aisles at Holy Communion, etc. And they follow the stand/sit/kneel rubrics of High Mass at Low Mass also.
One of the assistant priests says, in short, that's just how it is, and they don't seem to be making any effort to instruct.

What you describe sounds like an Indult Mass or even worse -- a recently introduced "Motu Proprio" Mass offered at a Novus Ordo church.

The priest should certainly know and understand the Liturgy, and instruct the people on the proper rubrics.

I'm sorry things are so bad in that location -- I can only say that it's not that bad everywhere.

s2srea · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2012, 03:10:55 PM »

Thank you Matthew- very true! I love your keen insights like this. This is essentially the same thing I was trying to say (albeit not very well) in another thread.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2012, 03:17:25 PM »

Yeah, but it might be the equivalent of some stage of the sixties.

I'll hate to see the 1968 of the SSPX, but I have a feeling it will come.

The SSPX will be utterly mocked and desecrated as an institution of Catholic Tradition.

As those who mock the Faith and the faithful are now in charge.

You won't want your children there when they spring the full bore liberalism and start to encourage libertinism.

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2012, 03:22:07 PM »

That may be true, but its also true of simply saving your own soul-(1960's-SSPX or not). Not being lukewarm, and doing your duty as a Traditional Catholic (which inherently means knowing what was said by Trent, Syllabus of Errors, etc,) is what we should already be doing.

Pablo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2012, 06:56:22 PM »

"...We have one member on here (Adolphus) going so far as to suspect Bishop Williamson of being a plant (!) because he's not some kind of hot-headed Irish leader, who is all action and no brains. As if to say that if we're not "acting" a few days after his expulsion, there's something wrong..."

His Excellency has admitted he got too comfortable in England.

Further, he has admitted to being confused as to why he cannot move quickly.

In public persona, he has stated we must be prudent and all those other things.

Don't take my word for it, write or call him asking if the above statements are true.

Bishop Williamson is one of the most honest men I know.

I am confident of his response.

*

s2srea · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2012, 08:15:11 PM »

Quote from: Pablo

"...We have one member on here (Adolphus) going so far as to suspect Bishop Williamson of being a plant (!) because he's not some kind of hot-headed Irish leader, who is all action and no brains. As if to say that if we're not "acting" a few days after his expulsion, there's something wrong..."

His Excellency has admitted he got too comfortable in England.

Further, he has admitted to being confused as to why he cannot move quickly.

In public persona, he has stated we must be prudent and all those other things.

Don't take my word for it, write or call him asking if the above statements are true.

Bishop Williamson is one of the most honest men I know.

I am confident of his response.

*

There is, of course, always a fine balance needed when acting, however we must admit His Excellency confirming these things is a far cry from claiming someone is a plant sir.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:09:34 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

To all those thinking we should leave, because "that would have been a great move when Vatican II was being implemented in 1970" should really open their eyes.

What abuses are taking place at SSPX chapels? I haven't heard of any.

Any Masses facing the people? Vernacular tongue? Novus Ordo Masses being said? Altar girls? Married deacons? Female lectors? Communion in the hand?

THOSE would be excellent reasons to leave your chapel with great sadness. But leaving because a great bishop was expelled? I don't believe that leaving your chapel is the best course of action -- unless you have other Mass options.

About the only thing I've heard is European rubrics being introduced -- the Dialogue Mass (which is a pre-Vatican II invention, and in no way harmful to the Faith or morals, or reverence at Mass) which includes *gasp* standing during the Sanctus, like the Faithful *should be doing* during a High Mass. They should be singing, too, for that matter if it's a High Mass. At our chapel they don't sing or stand, unfortunately.

Expelling +W is a grave sign for the SSPX; another milestone in its slow and steady decline. But we have a ways to go before the SSPX is as bad as the Indult, nevermind the Novus Ordo. If it's still the best thing going, you should think of Our Lord and how He ardently wants us to receive Him in Holy Communion so he can lavish His love and graces upon us.

We have one member on here (Adolphus) going so far as to suspect Bishop Williamson of being a plant (!) because he's not some kind of hot-headed Irish leader, who is all action and no brains. As if to say that if we're not "acting" a few days after his expulsion, there's something wrong.

I just have to say -- that is insane.

Disagree with your take on the dialogue Mass.

That it began as an experiment which required episcopal approval evinces it was considered as dangerous and revolutionary, or there would have been no need to regulate it.

Pretty easy to see it was a preparation for a distorted conception of "active participation" and the new "Mass."

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:19:44 PM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Quote
About the only thing I've heard is European rubrics being introduced -- the Dialogue Mass (which is a pre-Vatican II invention, and in no way harmful to the Faith or morals, or reverence at Mass)

Ah, that possibly explains our recent (approx 1 year) experience.
The SSPX and independent chapels we've attended in the US and Canada did not have dialogue. We arrived in Santiago (Chile) last year, and the SSPX faithful dialogue everything but the Our Father. Unfortunately, for me it is so distracting that I must discreetly plug my ears to concentrate on the prayers.

Could anyone point me to instruction on dialogue Mass rubrics for High and Low? That might be a good start.
I'm composing a respectful letter to the pastor, offering my help. (part of the solution vs. part of the problem) There is a great need for proper catechesis - many are dressed in jeans/casual wear including children, women abound in pants and no veils, there is mass confusion in the aisles at Holy Communion, etc. And they follow the stand/sit/kneel rubrics of High Mass at Low Mass also.
One of the assistant priests says, in short, that's just how it is, and they don't seem to be making any effort to instruct.

Did I just hijack the thread ? Matthew, please move this, if warranted.

The best letter you could write your pastor is to ask him why the heck he is saying a modernist-inspired degradation of the holy Mass, not ask him hot to say it more harmoniously.

Many is the time I found myself lip-synching the prayers in the seminary.

Hated it, since I knew its roots were the liturgical innovators of the 1930s.

Strange that we learned about it in Liturgy class, yet why we were saying such a Mass in a seminary founded to combat those errors I have never understood.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:16:44 PM »

Well, there is a crisis in the chapel I used to attend. One priest has been silenced. Another has become violent and has refused to address lay peoples concerns. Some people have been forced to leave. Others feel so uncomfortable they are leaving.

Some might say this has nothing to do with Bishop Williamson, but it has everything to do with reconciliation with Rome.

They are one by one getting rid of desenters as they prepare for some deal.

Pay attention. You might be happy now, but you will have to choose sooner or later.

Matthew · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:32:07 PM »

Quote from: CathMomof7

Well, there is a crisis in the chapel I used to attend. One priest has been silenced. Another has become violent and has refused to address lay peoples concerns. Some people have been forced to leave. Others feel so uncomfortable they are leaving.

Some might say this has nothing to do with Bishop Williamson, but it has everything to do with reconciliation with Rome.

They are one by one getting rid of desenters as they prepare for some deal.

Pay attention. You might be happy now, but you will have to choose sooner or later.

I've already chosen. Bishop Williamson all the way.

The point of this thread is that only a few chapels are having outright "crises" right now, whereas *every* parish church in 1970 was unacceptable from a doctrinal and liturgical perspective. There were no safe havens in the mainstream/post-conciliar Church in 1970.

There are *plenty* of places in the SSPX today where a person could have a Bishop Williamson bumper sticker and attend Mass with no problems. At least at the moment.