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Author Topic: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man  (Read 6602 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2023, 06:45:10 PM »
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  • Good work Sean and Ladislaus.
    Perhaps, also, promoting the next Superior General, or Bishop Celier?
    Frs Celier and Robinson are kindred spirits. Their careers (an apt description) form a nice parallel in their respective languages and large spheres of influence within the SSPX. They are both academics/philosophers who have something to add to Tradition; both heading up the large publishing houses of the SSPX (what better way to exert their influence); both publishing revolutionary books printed outside of the Society in both cases but enthusiastically promoted by the Society.
    I recall Fr MacDonald telling us that Fr Robinson visited NZ after his book release and Fr Laisney hosted him for a big parish conference and promotion which Fr MacDonald attended (surely that went down well!). The conference was followed by a question and answer. Fr MacDonald asked Fr Robinson what he thought of the new concept of "dark matter". Fr Robinson answered "just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist". A bit like Freemasons in the SSPX. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there. How could they not be? The enemy wants to destroy the Church. They infiltrated Her en-masse before the Council. Are they going to leave the remnant of the true Church unmolested?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #16 on: March 19, 2023, 08:08:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    Sounds like Fr. Celier is spinning the liturgical reform (aka the NOM) as mere as founded upon a misguided theological trend, vs. the deliberately pernicious work of a Freemason intent upon destroying the Church.
    This is indultism in a nutshell - "Oh, V2 was just hijacked by liberals and was implemented poorly.  The new mass, if said reverently, is holy and good."


    Agree, sounds like a "hybrid" mass is in the works.  Maybe +Francis lays the smack down on the indult TLM and then gets the indulters to "negotiate" a hybrid mass so that the "calendars can agree" and "everyone can get along".


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #17 on: March 19, 2023, 08:38:35 PM »
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  • Intersting, from the PDF you attached ...
    It's called plausible deniability.  SSPX agreed with the book, thus permitting it to be published without insisting upon corrections, but wanted to distance themselves from any blowback that might result.

    Bergoglio uses this tactic often.  He repeatedly allowed Scalfari to publish the attribution of grossly heretical statements to him.  Bergoglio never repudiated these statements nor denied them, but with Scalfari being the mouthpiece, he could maintain a separation from them and plausible deniability.

    Here's a good analysis about the Bergoglio/Scalfari partnership:  https://onepeterfive.com/scalfari-friend-of-francis-claims-pope-believes-jesus-was-not-a-god-at-all/

    Jorge stepped in it himself recently with "Hell is a state of mind, not a place." Recall that Jorge's last hell heresy used Scalfari as the mouthpiece.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #18 on: March 19, 2023, 09:00:15 PM »
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  • Preserve and backup all this info. Action must be taken to have these, and all such controversial topics openly discussed (not just on the internet among the few who consider these things), so that the truth may be found, the faith preserved, and anyone in error convinced of it and the consequences of it.

    Was it Anne Cathrine Emmerich who prophesied people not trusting anyone, even their neighbor in the church at some point? Looks like we could be getting close to those times. 
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #19 on: March 20, 2023, 02:01:54 AM »
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  • Preserve and backup all this info. Action must be taken to have these, and all such controversial topics openly discussed (not just on the internet among the few who consider these things), so that the truth may be found, the faith preserved, and anyone in error convinced of it and the consequences of it.

    Was it Anne Cathrine Emmerich who prophesied people not trusting anyone, even their neighbor in the church at some point? Looks like we could be getting close to those times.

    Even if you don't necessarily have to earn trust, you at least need to prove yourself not untrustworthy...
    Infidelity renders one untrustworthy.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #20 on: March 20, 2023, 02:40:52 AM »
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  • Thanks to all those in this thread doing God's work.

    The world is a slightly better place because of contributions to the Catholic cause like this thread. I mean that sincerely.

    All I have to contribute is --

    I have watched a ton of videos lately on "Answers in Genesis" about Creation, evolution, young earth, DNA, man's history, etc. and although it's a protestant group, they made points that a Catholic can take as-is and use! For example, the fact that there was no death before Original Sin. If the fossil record is truly the millions of years before Man's monkey ancestor was "upgraded" (given an immortal, rational soul) by the direct intervention of God, then there was PLENTY of cancer, sickness, and death BEFORE Original Sin. Which is heresy.

    Long story short, Fr. Robinson (et al) are much more unforgivable than priests teaching *the same exact material* in 1940 or 1950. Because we simply didn't have the truth staring us in the face back then. We didn't know what went on in a cell. We didn't know anything about DNA or genetics compared with today. AND Catholics in the 1950's were truly taken off guard, they thought that the scientists TRULY had proven evolution. So they just salvaged their religion, saying "Well, I know God exists, so He must have used evolution..."

    But such a position would be ridiculous today. We know better.

    * We know what Darwin and all his peers thought a cell was in his day (basically a homogeneous, gelatinous blob)
    * Darwin expected transitional fossils (stages between species, proving evolution) to be found -- they never were
    * We had the eruption of Mt. St. Helens in 1980, which caused "millions of years" of activity to happen in just weeks or months. We basically had God demonstrate to us just how quickly certain geological features can be created.
    * We know the statistical probability of how long it would take for a single protein to be created by random chance. Basically: impossible.
    * Natural selection (original wolf-like dog --> Poodle) is NOT the same as creating new information and a new species. You can get a poodle from the original Dog kind, but you breed OUT tons of information to get the degenerate result: a poodle. You can't go from poodle --> original Dog.  A new species involves new features, new programming, new INFORMATION. One of the atheists weakpoints: show me any observable mechanism whereby nature ADDS new information to the DNA of an animal. I'll wait. All they have is "mutation" but mutations are *always* harmful. You don't get wings on a lizard all the sudden.
    * And speaking of wings, there's the Irreducable Complexity argument. Certain "features" or parts of an animal all have to be created AT ONCE, ON DAY ONE or they don't work AND the animal doesn't survive to reproduce. Check and mate, evolution. Like the false "Jello cell" model, we might think, at first glance, that "wings" are something simple. But they're anything but simple. They involves whole SYSTEMS. You're talking hundreds of moving parts, including the entire creature's bone structure and density.

    For example, that one beetle that mixes chemicals to create an explosion to defend itself. Go watch a video or read an article about that little wonder. If the whole system didn't work on DAY ONE, the beetles would explode, destroy themselves, etc. and NO MORE BEETLES. They wouldn't survive to the next generation to proceed with iterative (step-by-step) development by blind chance. They wouldn't get that chance. Exploded, dead beetles don't reproduce. Irreducable Complexity.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #21 on: March 20, 2023, 02:51:04 AM »
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  • Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
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    Offline bvmariae

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #22 on: March 20, 2023, 01:52:49 PM »
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  • And the SSPX seems to have been on board with this plan (e.g., Importing the modernist French Mass postures to America in the mid/late 2000s; dialogue Masses in all schools; congregational singing in all American parishes; etc.), to eventually arrive at something close to the 1965 Missal (which many hold to be "the true Mass of Vatican II, and by this means save the council).

    The daily Mass at the Dillwyn Seminary is the Dialogue Mass.


    Offline TKonkel

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #23 on: March 20, 2023, 09:23:47 PM »
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  • I have watched a ton of videos lately on "Answers in Genesis" about Creation, evolution, young earth, DNA, man's history, etc. and although it's a protestant group, they made points that a Catholic can take as-is and use! For example, the fact that there was no death before Original Sin. If the fossil record is truly the millions of years before Man's monkey ancestor was "upgraded" (given an immortal, rational soul) by the direct intervention of God, then there was PLENTY of ...death BEFORE Original Sin. Which is heresy.

    Long story short, Fr. Robinson (et al) are much more unforgivable than priests teaching *the same exact material* in 1940 or 1950. Because we simply didn't have the truth staring us in the face back then. We didn't know what went on in a cell. We didn't know anything about DNA or genetics compared with today. AND Catholics in the 1950's were truly taken off guard, they thought that the scientists TRULY had proven evolution. So they just salvaged their religion, saying "Well, I know God exists, so He must have used evolution..."

    But such a position would be ridiculous today. We know better.

    * We know what Darwin and all his peers thought a cell was in his day (basically a homogeneous, gelatinous blob)
    * Darwin expected transitional fossils (stages between species, proving evolution) to be found -- they never were
    * We had the eruption of Mt. St. Helens in 1980, which caused "millions of years" of activity to happen in just weeks or months. We basically had God demonstrate to us just how quickly certain geological features can be created.
    * We know the statistical probability of how long it would take for a single protein to be created by random chance. Basically: impossible.
    * Natural selection (original wolf-like dog --> Poodle) is NOT the same as creating new information and a new species. You can get a poodle from the original Dog kind, but you breed OUT tons of information to get the degenerate result: a poodle. You can't go from poodle --> original Dog.  A new species involves new features, new programming, new INFORMATION. One of the atheists weakpoints: show me any observable mechanism whereby nature ADDS new information to the DNA of an animal. I'll wait. All they have is "mutation" but mutations are *always* harmful. You don't get wings on a lizard all the sudden.
    * And speaking of wings, there's the Irreducable Complexity argument. Certain "features" or parts of an animal all have to be created AT ONCE, ON DAY ONE or they don't work AND the animal doesn't survive to reproduce. Check and mate, evolution. Like the false "Jello cell" model, we might think, at first glance, that "wings" are something simple. But they're anything but simple. They involves whole SYSTEMS. You're talking hundreds of moving parts, including the entire creature's bone structure and density.

    For example, that one beetle that mixes chemicals to create an explosion to defend itself. Go watch a video or read an article about that little wonder. If the whole system didn't work on DAY ONE, the beetles would explode, destroy themselves, etc. and NO MORE BEETLES. They wouldn't survive to the next generation to proceed with iterative (step-by-step) development by blind chance. They wouldn't get that chance. Exploded, dead beetles don't reproduce. Irreducable Complexity.
    Well, certainly not the view of Aquinas… But I guess some prefer Ken Ham.  Lions have sharp teeth for a reason.  The idea that “death after the fall” means that lions didn’t eat meet is unreasonable according to Aquinas.  Answers in Genesis type thinking regarding science, reason, and revelation  is very far from the view of the greatest doctors of the Church - Aquinas and Augustine. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #24 on: March 20, 2023, 10:22:52 PM »
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  • Well, certainly not the view of Aquinas… But I guess some prefer Ken Ham.  Lions have sharp teeth for a reason.  The idea that “death after the fall” means that lions didn’t eat meet is unreasonable according to Aquinas.  Answers in Genesis type thinking regarding science, reason, and revelation  is very far from the view of the greatest doctors of the Church - Aquinas and Augustine. 

    Ok, I'll concede I was skeptical when they talk about lions and venus fly traps being vegetarian before the Fall. I'm not so sure about that one, and apparently St. Thomas Aquinas teaching agrees with my instincts/skepticism. I'm not one to argue with the Common Doctor of the Church.

    You can't be shocked when Protestants get 1 or 2 minor things wrong. At least they're trying to defend God and His Word.  At least they're inclined to believe God and the Bible over "The Religion of Science" or Darwinism. They have foolishly cast off the wisdom and guidance of the Catholic Church, and are forced to flail about on their own. But when these individuals go to work in the morning to "defend Genesis", I think MOST of them are of good will on that point, at least.

    That having been said, St. Thomas did not teach evolution or Old Earth, so he would agree with most of the material on Answers in Genesis.

    My point stands: there has never been a more foolish time to push evolution, after what REAL SCIENCE has learned as of today. Especially in fields of cellular microbiology, genetics, etc.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #25 on: March 25, 2023, 03:01:49 PM »
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  • We close by again recalling Mr. Chaussee's summary of Fr. Celier's 1987 essay (reposted by Ladislaus above), now for sale for sale by Angelus Press to English-language readers:

    "1987 - Grégoire Celier, The Ecuмenical Dimension of Liturgical Reform. Editions FIDELITER, Le Pointet, Escurolles. © G. CELIER.

    It is the work of a scholar who has accuмulated more than 300 quotations, most of which are contrary to traditional doctrine, but none of which are corrected by a reminder of the truth. Thus, in the foreground, a quotation from Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (but of course!):

    "Liturgical reform is a great conquest of the Catholic Church, with important ecuмenical repercussions; not only has it aroused the admiration of other Churches and Christian communities, but it also represents a kind of model for them. » (1974).

    But Celier forgets to say that in 1975, we discovered with amazement that Archbishop Bugnini was a Freemason! In his Letter to Friends and Benefactors No. 10, Bishop Lefebvre wrote: "When we learn in Rome that he who was the soul of the liturgical reform is a Freemason, we can think that he is not the only one. The veil that covers the greatest mystification of clerics and the faithful has probably begun to be torn. "A revealing omission, twenty years ago already.

    This book could be signed by a progressive conciliarist or by a Protestant. The warning contains no criticisms of neo-Modernist ecuмenism and there is no reference to the encyclical Mortalium Animos of Pius XI, (1928) condemning this modern ecuмenism. Obviously, the author has forgotten the Apostle's precept: "I implore you... insist in time and against time, correct, correct, threaten, exhort, always with patience and instruction. " (II Timothy 4:1-2).

    So how could this pernicious book be allowed to be published when it was a lying by omission?"


    I just received this book in the mail, and after only a few pages read, can concur that Mr. Chaussee's criticism (red font above) is fully justified and accurate.

    Even the editor (Angelus Press) seems to be aware of this deficiency, and consequently adds an Editor's Note at the beginning (see pic in the attachment), explaining that the book is "a compendium, not a catechism," and furthermore, that "the astute reader" (flattery to distract from the omission?) will "know how to compare these intentions to the perrenial teaching of the Church."

    In other words, neither the SSPX nor Fr. Celier dare to critique the comments which form the entirety of the book, and in much the same way the faithful were left without guidance regarding the moral liceity of the COVID vax (except to be told it wasn't sinful), so too are they left to their own devices to discover whether, what, and where any of these comments quoted by Celier are erroneous, and why.

    The question then becomes, what is the value of this book, and why bring it to American/English-language readers' attention?

    Clearly, the SSPX wants to aquaint its readers with the thought of the modernists, not in order that they can become aware of their errors (for none are adduced), but for its own sake, while counting on extrinsic and former criticisms of ecuмenism to color the presentation with an aura of criticism which does not exist within the pages of the book.  That the same cover also includes another independent study (The Problem of th Liturgical Reform), which the editor says was attached to give Celier's compendium context, doesn't solve the problem:

    There is no reference to The Problem of the Liturgical Reform in Celier's essay, it being placed posterior to it artificially by the editors (to camoflage Celirer's omissions?).  And consequently, the readers are left with a mind full of conciliar mush, with nothing but their own "astuteness" to guide them.

    Because of this, the book is of marginal value (except perhaps to an academic or learned researcher/author/historian), and on the whole represents more a danger to, than a defense of, Catholic doctrine if consumed by the simple faithful.


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #26 on: March 25, 2023, 03:31:05 PM »
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  • I just received this book in the mail, and after only a few pages read, can concur that Mr. Chaussee's criticism (red font above) is fully justified and accurate.

    Even the editor (Angelus Press) seems to be aware of this deficiency, and consequently adds an Editor's Note at the beginning (see pic in the attachment), explaining that the book is "a compendium, not a catechism," and furthermore, that "the astute reader" (flattery to distract from the omission?) will "know how to compare these intentions to the perrenial teaching of the Church."

    In other words, neither the SSPX nor Fr. Celier dare to critique the comments which form the entirety of the book, and in much the same way the faithful were left without guidance regarding the moral liceity of the COVID vax (except to be told it wasn't sinful), so too are they left to their own devices to discover whether, what, and where any of these comments quoted by Celier are erroneous, and why.

    The question then becomes, what is the value of this book, and why bring it to American/English-language readers' attention?

    Clearly, the SSPX wants to acquaint its readers with the thought of the modernists, not in order that they can become aware of their errors (for none are adduced), but for its own sake, while counting on extrinsic and former criticisms of ecuмenism to color the presentation with an aura of criticism which does not exist within the pages of the book.  That the same cover also includes another independent study (The Problem of th Liturgical Reform), which the editor says was attached to give Celier's compendium context, doesn't solve the problem:

    There is no reference to The Problem of the Liturgical Reform in Celier's essay, it being placed posterior to it artificially by the editors (to camoflage Celirer's omissions?).  And consequently, the readers are left with a mind full of conciliar mush, with nothing but their own "astuteness" to guide them.

    Because of this, the book is of marginal value (except perhaps to an academic or learned researcher/author/historian), and on the whole represents more a danger to, than a defense of, Catholic doctrine if consumed by the simple faithful.

    Here's an example of the foregoing comments, from the book, on the subject of the new 1968 rites of ordination (p. 41):




    OK, so the form of the new rites "was bitterly disputed on the commisssion."

    Why?

    What were the arguments made against the new forms?

    Who made them?

    Where besides Dom Botte's book (if even there in entirety) can we find them?

    What was wrong with them?

    Did the arguments against them bear upon validity?

    From Fr. Celier, none of this is forthcoming (or any criticism at all, for that matter).  All you need to know is that they were motivated by ecuмenical considerations of the reformers, and then we move on.

    Remember: "Its a compendium, not a catechism."

    Whether you think these intentions were good or bad, modernist or orthodox, is dependent upon your own "astuteness."

    I wonder what percent of readers will find these modernist intentions (at least some of them) "reasonable?"
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #27 on: March 25, 2023, 05:30:15 PM »
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  • What a disaster!

    Offline Francisco

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #28 on: April 11, 2023, 09:39:09 PM »
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  • What about Fr Emmanuel du Challard ? Hasn't this Archbishop Lefebvre ordained priest been the longest standing go between between the Modernists and the SSPX?
    Isn't he the Superior General of the Novus Ordo approved Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart that accepts both spiritual and monetary assistance from the SSPX and has alluded all Vatican restrictions on the TLM including the latest Rescription? This order of nuns operates in Europe and India. In the latter country it monopolizes the priestly and monetary resources of the 
    SSPX and has thus ground the Apostolate in that country to a halt.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX's Most Dangerous Man
    « Reply #29 on: April 11, 2023, 10:12:13 PM »
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  • What about Fr Emmanuel du Challard ? Hasn't this Archbishop Lefebvre ordained priest been the longest standing go between between the Modernists and the SSPX?
    Isn't he the Superior General of the Novus Ordo approved Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart that accepts both spiritual and monetary assistance from the SSPX and has alluded all Vatican restrictions on the TLM including the latest Rescription? This order of nuns operates in Europe and India. In the latter country it monopolizes the priestly and monetary resources of the
    SSPX and has thus ground the Apostolate in that country to a halt.
    Best not to say that name out loud.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."