Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time  (Read 1782 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15064
  • Reputation: +9980/-3161
  • Gender: Male
SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
« on: June 04, 2023, 01:01:13 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Am I correct in understanding that the only difference between the SSPV and the Resistance is the "una cuм?"

    That the SSPV is not officially sedevacantist (even if all their priests are non-una cuм)?

    Are there both sede and non-sede priests in the SSPV?

    Would una cuм priests be welcome within the SSPV?

    Has the SSPV written anything about the Resistance?

    I found this on Wikipedia: 

    "Almost immediately, these priests, with Kelly as their leader, formed the Society of Saint Pius V[3] (SSPV), which held that it is at least a debatable question whether the popes since 1958 have in fact been legitimate Roman Pontiffs.[3] The Society does not believe that it has the right to decide the question of sedevacantism definitively, but believes that "those who presently are thought to be occupying hierarchical positions in the Catholic Church are acting, for the most part, as though they do not have the Faith, according to all human means of judging".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Kelly 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline frankielogue

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 58
    • Reputation: +28/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #1 on: June 04, 2023, 01:48:12 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sense I get is that they are 'de facto' non una cuм now, and that is probably how it will stay. There are no non-sedevacantist priests in the CSPV of whom I am aware. I do not know any more.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31195
    • Reputation: +27111/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #2 on: June 04, 2023, 03:58:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The title of this thread reminds me of a Brittney Spears song.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Kazimierz

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7388
    • Reputation: +3488/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #3 on: June 04, 2023, 05:13:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The title of this thread reminds me of a Brittney Spears song.
    Oh dear! We men are taught never to hit a lady. But if she ain’t a lady?
    lots of Karen’s out there just begging to get paddled with a cricket bat.

    Then there is that song “Dude looks like a lady”

    The metaphors for theological differences between Mass groups is plentiful.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #4 on: June 04, 2023, 05:14:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Don't believe the SSPV has a "position" regarding the SSPX Resistance. Not that he speaks for the organization, but you may find what Fr Jenkins has to say in this video relevant--around 25 minutes (FTR I disagree with Fr.'s evaluation of the una cuм issue, which he discusses amidst mentioning the resistance):

    What Frankielogue said is, as far as I can tell, the truth. The group itself isn't sedevacantist per se, but all of their priests are. As far as an una cuм priest being welcome, I would be rather surprised if a non-una cuм seminarian would be interested.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #5 on: June 05, 2023, 05:15:57 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Am I correct in understanding that the only difference between the SSPV and the Resistance is the "una cuм?"

    That the SSPV is not officially sedevacantist (even if all their priests are non-una cuм)?

    Are there both sede and non-sede priests in the SSPV?

    Would una cuм priests be welcome within the SSPV?

    Has the SSPV written anything about the Resistance?

    I found this on Wikipedia:

    "Almost immediately, these priests, with Kelly as their leader, formed the Society of Saint Pius V[3] (SSPV), which held that it is at least a debatable question whether the popes since 1958 have in fact been legitimate Roman Pontiffs.[3] The Society does not believe that it has the right to decide the question of sedevacantism definitively, but believes that "those who presently are thought to be occupying hierarchical positions in the Catholic Church are acting, for the most part, as though they do not have the Faith, according to all human means of judging".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Kelly
    From what you have told me, while Sspx resistance  might strongly disapprove attending NO or Indult parishes, they still consider those who do attend to be Catholics and thus will give them communion

    whereas sspv says NO and indult are “different religions” and so refuses to commune with those who go there.  They also break communion with thuc line priests chapels 

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23939/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #6 on: June 05, 2023, 07:35:10 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • While all the current SSPV priests happen to be SV, I am curious as to whether they would welcome a non-SV at their seminary.  I don't know if that's ever been asked of them or if any such candidate ever applied at their seminary.  To be consistent with their stated principles, it would seem they would have to.  I know they do not refuse Communion to those who assist at una cuм Masses, and I know one lady, a long-time parishioner of theirs, who actually taught at the school of a non-SV independent priest for years, and assisted at daily Mass there.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 746
    • Reputation: +503/-93
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #7 on: June 06, 2023, 06:10:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know they do not refuse Communion to those who assist at una cuм Masses.
    But the SSPV does refuse Communion to anyone whom they know to be a Feeneyite.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1338
    • Reputation: +489/-73
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #8 on: June 06, 2023, 06:12:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But the SSPV does refuse Communion to anyone whom they know to be a Feeneyite.
    Big oof. Refusing to give communion to some people because they keep the EENS dogma....this doesn't bode well for them.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23939/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #9 on: June 06, 2023, 06:30:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But the SSPV does refuse Communion to anyone whom they know to be a Feeneyite.

    I heard a story directly from one of "The Nine" that a prominent priest among them refused Sacraments to a "Feeneyite" on his deathbed.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2023, 08:55:57 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I heard a story directly from one of "The Nine" that a prominent priest among them refused Sacraments to a "Feeneyite" on his deathbed.
    I don’t like the feeneyite position at all but… my gosh.. even if you think it’s objectively heresy (which I’m not claiming), how could you presume culpability with such high stakes when you don’t know?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1338
    • Reputation: +489/-73
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #11 on: June 06, 2023, 10:28:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don’t like the feeneyite position at all but… my gosh.. even if you think it’s objectively heresy (which I’m not claiming), how could you presume culpability with such high stakes when you don’t know?
    Dunno but it really makes me think what is wrong with these priests. Even the sspx wouldn't do that...

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23939/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #12 on: June 06, 2023, 11:26:47 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don’t like the feeneyite position at all but… my gosh.. even if you think it’s objectively heresy (which I’m not claiming), how could you presume culpability with such high stakes when you don’t know?

    Right.  Even if it's your opinion that it's heretical, Father Cekada's survey of theologians had only a minority of them assigning it the note of heresy.  So there's no clear consensus on the matter regardless.  Those who hold the opinion don't believe it's heretical or even erroneous, and most would certainly abandon the position if the Church were to rule on it (vs. it being the opinion of a minority of theologians).

    There's never been any anathema along the lines of:  "If someone does not believe that desire for Baptism can suffice for salvation, let him be anathema."  Father Feeney stated that his position was his opinion only.

    There's nothing particularly clear-cut from the Magisterium about the matter, and the fact that Catholics who profess that they accept all the truths taught by the Church have different opinions about it is prima facie evidence that it hasn't been defined.  Otherwise, there would be no doubt, question, or disagreement, and all 27 of Father Cekada's theologians would have clearly stated that it's de fide.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23939/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPV vs Resistance...One More Time
    « Reply #13 on: June 06, 2023, 11:29:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dunno but it really makes me think what is wrong with these priests. Even the sspx wouldn't do that...

    No, the SSPX wouldn't refuse Sacrament to "Feeneyites".  So, the reason that the greatest hostility against the position comes from sedevacantist priests and bishops is because of their exaggerated notion of infallibility.  Even if you read Trent the way BoDers do, the passage could easily be understood as stating that you must hold that the Sacrament of Baptism is required at least in desire, not that you must positively hold that desire alone suffices for salvation.  There's no intent to define there, and there's no Canon in Trent along those lines to reinforce any kind of definition.  It's in the Canons of Trent that you find that which Trent meant to define vs. the longer explanatory / expository sections.

    There's also a serious problem with St. Alphonsus' appeal to a letter from Pope Innocent as evidence for it being de fide.  There's another letter from another Pope Innocent that explicitly states that those who are saved by desire rush to heaven without delay, i.e. rejecting St. Alphonsus' theory that temporal punishment can remain after initial justification by BoD.  In fact, by simple (and irrefutable) syllogism from Trent's teaching, initial justification requires rebirth, and Trent defines rebirth as removing all punishment due to sin.  So by St. Alphonsus' own criteria, his own position would be heretical.