Author Topic: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix  (Read 4692 times)

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Offline Town Crier

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Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
« on: October 16, 2017, 10:17:45 PM »
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  • I am a parishioner at Our Lady Of Sorrows. I have for a couple of years now read about the goings on at OLOS
    here on Cathinfo . I have agreed with some and disagreed with some Until now I have not felt the need to contribute 

    On Sunday the 15th of Oct it was announced  in the weekly bulletin that the sermon on Sunday the 22nd of Oct. would be in Spanish 
    It seems Fr. Pazat could not wait until the 22nd to usher in a whole new demographic and conducted the sermon in both English & Spanish
    This move was made without any foresight or study This is not a parish of liberal guilt ridden Catholics ready to see everything they have built CHANGED TO ACCOMMODATE , to see our parish become a mirror of other parishes that have tried to mix ,to attempt to serve all IT DOES NOT WORK  
    The conservative parishioners will leave. 
    Maybe the Prior does not care. Maybe he thinks his new Hispanic parishioners will be loyal to the SSPX ,will be devoted to tradition ,will be obedient and 
    will contribute great sums in support of our parish . Well wrong on all counts. I have seen it in other Novus Ordo parishes ,other Latin Mass parishes
    Just like every neighborhood everywhere be prepared for "white flight". Oh the liberal do-gooders will stay and the hold outs for awhile but the parish as we know it now 
    as a European American staunchly traditional Catholic community is going to empty out as more and more is  CHANGED TO ACCOMMODATE   
     

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 10:43:01 PM »
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  • .
    I think you have an accurate sense about this. Here in L.A., Roger Cardinal Mahony tried this concept out, even at the so-called Cathedral downtown, where they would mix English and Spanish and sometimes other languages too (Tagalog, Korean, Vietnamese) but it never worked out. It just made the ceremonies last a lot longer.
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    You might have noticed them trying it in Rome, too, in an attempt to make foreigners feel welcome.
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    Eventually, like you say, the conservative and longstanding supporters end up leaving.
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    Offline Cato

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 12:16:28 AM »
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  • From your weekly bulletin -

    "Spanish/English sermon at 10am Mass on Sunday, October 22. Spread the word! If there is a good response, we will consider doing this once a month."

    The 10am is your main Sunday mass;  that would push the English speakers to the 7:30am mass.  I'm not a morning person myself.


    I wouldn't mind a Spanish sermon mass at another time - perhaps in the afternoon like the Novus Ordo people have.

    But if it catch's on, you could always volunteer to help at Quincearneras, enjoy the street vendors that hang out after Spanish masses.  Perhaps your parish could even provide sanctuary to the undocumented like they do in Los Angeles? 

    But I doubt Mexicans are very aware of the Tridentine mass.  They really enjoy their Spanish Novus Ordo masses.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 12:23:05 AM »
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  • .
    I think you have an accurate sense about this. Here in L.A., Roger Cardinal Mahony tried this concept out, even at the so-called Cathedral downtown, where they would mix English and Spanish and sometimes other languages too (Tagalog, Korean, Vietnamese) but it never worked out. It just made the ceremonies last a lot longer.
    .
    You might have noticed them trying it in Rome, too, in an attempt to make foreigners feel welcome.
    .
    Eventually, like you say, the conservative and longstanding supporters end up leaving.
    .

    I doubt it is the multiple languages used that bothers people as much as change for the sake of change, which is what modernism is all about. Changes are subtly introduced, one change at a time. It is like the frog that is placed in a pan of cold water which is gradually heated. Before the frog can jump out, he is cooked because he has become so comfortable in the warm water.

    Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles called it a revolutionary mass where new changes took place almost every Sunday. His parish liturgical commissions were expected to try new things and "enhance" the church with new banners, new songs, new dances, etc. The mass became a spectacle where new bells, new scents, new sights, new sounds, and new tastes were expected.

    In addition, these "touchy-feelly" experiences where people must shake the hands of those nearby, hug each other, and hold hands during the Lord's Prayer have replaced the Ancient Mystery where Christ is encountered in the Holy Eucharist. This is the new religion of man, where the creature is worshiped instead of the Creator.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 12:36:00 AM »
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  • But I doubt Mexicans are very aware of the Tridentine mass.  They really enjoy their Spanish Novus Ordo masses.
    I don't think Mexicans are any more or less likely to find the True Mass. I've seen plenty assisting at Tridentine Masses here in Central TX. The majority of them are fluent in English, but a few are not. I think a less problematic approach would be to offer printed copies of the sermon in Spanish and offer Confession in both languages.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 12:55:39 AM »
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  • I don't think Mexicans are any more or less likely to find the True Mass. I've seen plenty assisting at Tridentine Masses here in Central TX. The majority of them are fluent in English, but a few are not. I think a less problematic approach would be to offer printed copies of the sermon in Spanish and offer Confession in both languages.
    While I was attending college, I was helping out at a Spanish mission here in Los Angeles.

    Having the sermon printed out in Spanish does not help many Hispanics because many of the new immigrants do not know how to read and write in their own Spanish language.

    What helped them the most was having a group meeting afterwards where the priest would come and deliver a talk in Spanish as well as spending time socializing with them.  They liked the opportunity to ask questions outside of the church because several of them were being approached by Protestants who have made a lot of inroads into the Hispanic communities, many of whom are from Guatamala, Equador, and El Salvador. Thus, they asked for Bible Studies to strengthen their faith.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Moorslayer

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 10:34:17 AM »
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  • This is a huge concern. 

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that immigrants must respect the material heritage of the country. 
    If they're legal they need to learn English, 
    if they're illegal(the vast majority of exclusively Spanish speakers in the US) then they're committing a mortal sin by breaking a secular law. 

    Enabling and pandering to criminals who are in mortal sin, is wrong. 
    Multiculturalism is liberalism and condemned by the SSPX themselves: 
    http://archives.sspx.org/against_sound_bites/multiculturalism.htm

    Having a bilingual mass is the definition of multiculturalism.
    There is a Spanish Latin Mass right down the street at St. Catherine of Sienna... Send them there...
    This will usher in a demographic shift that will completely replace and displace our current congregation. 
    The Spanish mass will bring in tons of illegals who will then bring their bilingual anchor babies who will start attending the English mass.
    White parishioners will gradually feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in their own parish as the (generally-speaking) Air-Jordan wearing immodest impious ghetto South Phoenix Hispanic crowd moseys their way in because "yo the Latin mass be badass essay!"

    Few are willing to voice these concerns, but the vast majority of parishioners will feel this way whether they admit it to themselves or not. 
    White Flight is a phenomenon for a reason, because people don't want to live around trashy crime-ridden neigborhoods.
    This would be essentially equivalent to starting a homeless ministry passing out free food and goodies to homeless who come attend Latin mass. 
    It's unjust and unfair to significantly permanently impact the demographics of the parish. 

    Daily reminder: Yes we're required to love everyone, not hate anyone, and have a bond with all Catholics, but that doesn't meant we have to roll out the red carpet to invite the 3rd world into our homes and Churches.
    We have a right according to natural law to an identity as a people, and to exclude immigrants who do not conform to our national interests. 
    It is the conservative right-wing position to limit immigration and SSPX beginning to pander to liberal progressive multiculturalism is deeply troubling. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
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  • Your Priory/Chapel has already been much traumatized and spiritually gutted of the true SSPX die-hards.

    The Spanish sermons are just another example of how Fr. Wegner is pushing through a soft-novus ordo agenda.

    I wouldn't doubt if SSPX Phoenix is a Menzingen beta-test site for their roll-out of reforms of traditional Catholicism.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Town Crier

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 01:18:57 PM »
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  • This is a huge concern.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that immigrants must respect the material heritage of the country.
    If they're legal they need to learn English,
    if they're illegal(the vast majority of exclusively Spanish speakers in the US) then they're committing a mortal sin by breaking a secular law.

    Enabling and pandering to criminals who are in mortal sin, is wrong.
    Multiculturalism is liberalism and condemned by the SSPX themselves:
    http://archives.sspx.org/against_sound_bites/multiculturalism.htm

    Having a bilingual mass is the definition of multiculturalism.
    There is a Spanish Latin Mass right down the street at St. Catherine of Sienna... Send them there...
    This will usher in a demographic shift that will completely replace and displace our current congregation 
    Quote
    You are absolutely right Moorslayer It is not like we are asking that a spiritual need be ignored .They have St. Catherine of Sienna  
    and the changes to the ambiance or atmosphere if you will you alluded to has already begun .The Hispanic newcomers (those who have started coming since the building of the new church) seem incapable or unwilling to keep their children quiet or still during Mass . They frequently and repeatedly are dressed inappropriately for Mass but still we will be the ones asked to  CHANGE TO ACCOMMODATE. it seems to me the church is more afraid of looking xenophobic then losing contributing members or anything else for that matter



    Offline Town Crier

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 01:25:55 PM »
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  • Your Priory/Chapel has already been much traumatized and spiritually gutted of the true SSPX die-hards.

    The Spanish sermons are just another example of how Fr. Wegner is pushing through a soft-novus ordo agenda.

    I wouldn't doubt if SSPX Phoenix is a Menzingen beta-test site for their roll-out of reforms of traditional Catholicism.
    I would have disagreed with you just a month or even a week ago    but now ?

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 01:37:05 PM »
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  • I wouldn't doubt if SSPX Phoenix is a Menzingen beta-test site for their roll-out of reforms of traditional Catholicism.

    Having lived my whole life in the Southwest, my experience has been that the Hispanics (Chicanos) that make up a large percentage of the parishes of Traditional Mass centers, tend to be more liberal. So, it makes sense to me to exploit the demographics of this region for such an operation. 


    Offline Bilbo

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 05:10:19 PM »
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  • Your Priory/Chapel has already been much traumatized and spiritually gutted of the true SSPX die-hards.
    The interesting thing is that OLOS in Phoenix hasn't lost that many of their parishioners over the years. The main group that has always run the parish is still in charge so they are obviously on board with these new changes. Since not that many of the true SSPX die-hards have left, it goes to show that it is more likely that the "true die-hards" changed their strong stances yet still reside in the parish.

    Offline marcel

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 09:17:57 PM »
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  • The sermon was short both in Spanish and English. It was a test run to see if there would be a suitable response. It seems quite reasonable to me to help these people come to the fullness of the true faith, with perhaps further individualized help after the Masses. It's great to see more locals attracted to Tradition.



    Offline Cato

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 09:23:58 PM »
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  • I don't think Mexicans are any more or less likely to find the True Mass. I've seen plenty assisting at Tridentine Masses here in Central TX. The majority of them are fluent in English, but a few are not. I think a less problematic approach would be to offer printed copies of the sermon in Spanish and offer Confession in both languages.
    To clarify, when I wrote Mexican, I didn't mean Mexican Americans - I meant Mexicans who are new to the USA.  Mexican Americans - I see many of those people at Latin Masses.  Did the OP object to increased numbers of Mexican Americans?  They seem pretty assimilated.

    If the OP wants Latin Masses for Anglo Saxons (and Irish) only, that's a different issue. 

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Spanish sermons at SSPX Phoenix
    « Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 11:31:16 AM »
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  • I'm at OLS myself.  If there are enough Spanish speakers to need a sermon in Spanish then there should be a separate Latin/Spanish Mass.  Bi-lingual Mass short-changes both groups because we get sermonettes.

    I plan to mention this to Fr. Stafki, I hope others will also.  But he'll probably just say that it is only once a month so the sacrifice is worth it to draw in Spanish speakers. 

     

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