Author Topic: Someone asked Resistance supporter - what if YOU have fallen from grace? (Read 2435 times)

Matthew · « **on:** September 08, 2016, 05:04:35 PM »

Someone who firmly supports the neo-SSPX, and hates the Resistance, asked me on Facebook, "What if you have fallen from grace?"

My response:

There would be evidence of it. Even if we are never 100% sure of where we stand before God, nevertheless we can have some idea, based on our spiritual life, prayer life, how often we fall into sin, etc. Plus it's a question of Free Will -- what do we want? God or ourselves?

Do we want to deny ourselves and follow God, or deny God and follow ourselves. If a person looks deep within himself, he will know which camp he's in. It's not a complete unknowable mystery.

If you are willing to make any sacrifice to follow God, then I seriously doubt God will cast you into hell, even if you turned out to be objectively on the wrong side. We can only be expected to follow our conscience.

It's a question of following God's will, to the best of one's ability. When it comes to knowing God's will, the Ten Commandments are always a sure thing. Also the 6 Commandments of the Church.

Beyond that, sometimes God's will for us isn't so clear-cut. We have to use the virtue of Prudence, which means we might get some things wrong. What's important is where we place God in our hearts: First, last, or somewhere in between.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** September 08, 2016, 05:13:39 PM »

In the neo-SSPX vs. Resistance debate, I'd say that the "burden of proof" is on the neo-SSPX side.

1. It is objectively more convenient and easy to "enjoy" your SSPX chapel than to leave it all behind. Now something being more convenient doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean it's evil, but it often does. So one must be careful.

2. There is plenty of evidence of changed positions and contradictions in the neo-SSPX position. There is also plenty of evidence that the neo-SSPX does not maintain the position of +Lefebvre.

3. There is plenty of evidence that an FSSP type position has serious issues, and a good Catholic can easily reject that position. The neo-SSPX is essentially the same position as the FSSP. The old SSPX rejected the FSSP position for years; so it should hardly put a Catholic's good will into question if they wanted to continue to reject the FSSP position!

4. There is also plenty of evidence of malfeasance, deception, persecution of good people (priests and laity), propaganda, sacrilege (using Sacraments as a tool to bully and blackmail parishioners) and other shady dealings on the part of the neo-SSPX. Detesting the evil deeds observed in the SSPX in the past 4 years can't be called anything other than praiseworthy.

5. Generally speaking, it is more praiseworthy to defend the victim than the attacker, in a case where both men are of equal dignity. Just looking at the letter of the Three to the One, and the One to the Three (May 2012), it is obvious that +Fellay is burdened by pride and arrogance. I'm not attacking Bishop Fellay, I'm defending Bishop Williamson, who was personally chosen by +Lefebvre and who hasn't changed significantly since he was ordained.

klasG4e · « **Reply #2 on:** September 08, 2016, 06:11:11 PM »

For those who have never heard of it just be advised to be careful never to slip into the theological error of fundamental option. "Google it," although I hope you are in the habit of using the StartPage/Ixquick search engine.

Incredulous · « **Reply #3 on:** September 08, 2016, 07:03:05 PM »

The accusation of a "fall from grace" is mere projection.

The SSPX is rejecting their own heritage and reconciling with a den of conciliar, schismatic vipers.

You're accuser, is just trying to cope with the betrayal.

Motorede · « **Reply #4 on:** September 08, 2016, 08:34:17 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Someone who firmly supports the neo-SSPX, and hates the Resistance, asked me on Facebook, "What if you have fallen from grace?"

My response:

There would be evidence of it. Even if we are never 100% sure of where we stand before God, nevertheless we can have some idea, based on our spiritual life, prayer life, how often we fall into sin, etc. Plus it's a question of Free Will -- what do we want? God or ourselves?

Do we want to deny ourselves and follow God, or deny God and follow ourselves. If a person looks deep within himself, he will know which camp he's in. It's not a complete unknowable mystery.

If you are willing to make any sacrifice to follow God, then I seriously doubt God will cast you into hell, even if you turned out to be objectively on the wrong side. We can only be expected to follow our conscience.

It's a question of following God's will, to the best of one's ability. When it comes to knowing God's will, the Ten Commandments are always a sure thing. Also the 6 Commandments of the Church.

Beyond that, sometimes God's will for us isn't so clear-cut. We have to use the virtue of Prudence, which means we might get some things wrong. What's important is where we place God in our hearts: First, last, or somewhere in between.

This thought/quote from Pére Didon's book Jesus Christ gives me comfort and I thought of it when reading the above: "When a man has done all in his power to learn his duty,he may still make mistakes; but he merits the help of God, and God intervenes to save him."

mw2016 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 08, 2016, 10:09:44 PM »

I suppose this question falls into the same category as "are their still faithful Catholics in the Novus Ordo who will be saved?" or "are there still Eucharistic miracles from Hosts consecrated in the Novus Ordo?" and the answer (as Bp. Williamson said) appears to be yes.

So, yes, there will undoubtedly be faithful Catholics who will stay in the neo-SSPX, even after the deal, who will be saved.

But, as Matthew said, we all have to do what we feel is right in taking up our Cross and following Him.

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** September 08, 2016, 10:21:55 PM »

By the way, the original "accusation" was made by an ex-CathInfo member who many of you might know.

His screen name begins with a C, and rhymes with Caminus.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2016, 10:29:54 PM »

"What if you have fallen from grace?"
This is an interesting thought. It reminds me of a conference I saw by an FSSP priest about prayer. In it he said that according to the saints, particularly St Teresa of Avila, if you are able to enter into the higher levels of prayer, it is a sure sign that you are in the state of grace because when you enter into these higher levels it is God acting within you which only happens if you are in a state of grace. He did not say if the devils could mimic these forms of prayer though.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:28:07 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

By the way, the original "accusation" was made by an ex-CathInfo member who many of you might know.

His screen name begins with a C, and rhymes with Caminus.

:scratchchin:

I can't imagine who that might be. Can you give additional clues?

nctradcath · « **Reply #9 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:38:23 AM »

Is Caminus still supporting the SSPX even after Frankie the heretic? I truly do not understand his thought process as he is an intelligent man.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:54:35 AM »

In highschool, my teacher told us that "WW3 will be a battle in the mind." How right he was! Ever since the Protestant revolt in 1571, (which corresponds to the start of the 5th age and the persecution of the Church), we've been fighting philosophical errors and all this has drastically impaired our ability to think as Catholics.

-Neo-catholics follow a council and a papal caricature, instead of historical and liturgical truth.
-Trad Catholics follow their groups (i.e. sspx, sspv), instead of the Faith their groups were founded upon.
-Americans follow politicians or parties, instead of the ideals that made this country what it was.

And it's all due to poor thinking. Poor philosophies. Poor logic. Or, should we say, it's all due to sin, because sin "darkens the mind". But, even in the case of catholics who are trying to cultivate virtue, we are still not immune from poor thinking and logic because these are human errors we've grown up with. Point is, we must PRAY FOR WISDOM!

Without it, we are doomed to follow in the footsteps of those who have (and who will in the future) compromise their Faith (however small) and who will lose their souls.

"Take heed that no man seduce you." *cough*Fellay*cough* (Matt 24:4)
"But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." (Matt 24:13)

josefamenendez · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2016, 10:39:04 AM »

Personally, I could not reconcile worshiping the Truth, and then have the Institution I was worshiping in not able or not willing to tell me the complete truth. I found it difficult to self- censor myself in conversations ( some things are just not said!) It just wasn't good enough. It just wasn't real enough.
I felt like I was being funneled into another cattle chute of partial truths ( partial lies) to keep "order"and "peace". How many times has this happened over our lifetimes?

Could I be wrong to go to a Resistance Chapel? I can always be wrong, and have been many times in this miserable life.
But the peace I have in Mass now with the most wonderful Priests and the small gathering of congregants all on the same page, along with the lack of distractions,the lack of inner turmoil ( that I always had in the past hearing things that were outright wrong) has made all the difference for me. I don't feel like an unwilling player in a bad production anymore.

Maybe I am being too hard on my past "Church" experiences, and certainly these are my own opinions.

Ultimately, I must count on our Lady's promise that if you pray the Rosary, she will not lead you into error, or let you stay in it, if you are already there.

A belated Happy Birthday to her.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 09, 2016, 11:03:57 AM »

Quote from: Motorede

Quote from: Matthew
Someone who firmly supports the neo-SSPX, and hates the Resistance, asked me on Facebook, "What if you have fallen from grace?"

My response:

There would be evidence of it. Even if we are never 100% sure of where we stand before God, nevertheless we can have some idea, based on our spiritual life, prayer life, how often we fall into sin, etc. Plus it's a question of Free Will -- what do we want? God or ourselves?

Do we want to deny ourselves and follow God, or deny God and follow ourselves. If a person looks deep within himself, he will know which camp he's in. It's not a complete unknowable mystery.

If you are willing to make any sacrifice to follow God, then I seriously doubt God will cast you into hell, even if you turned out to be objectively on the wrong side. We can only be expected to follow our conscience.

It's a question of following God's will, to the best of one's ability. When it comes to knowing God's will, the Ten Commandments are always a sure thing. Also the 6 Commandments of the Church.

Beyond that, sometimes God's will for us isn't so clear-cut. We have to use the virtue of Prudence, which means we might get some things wrong. What's important is where we place God in our hearts: First, last, or somewhere in between.

This thought/quote from Pére Didon's book Jesus Christ gives me comfort and I thought of it when reading the above: "When a man has done all in his power to learn his duty,he may still make mistakes; but he merits the help of God, and God intervenes to save him."

Exactly our protection from 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11!

"And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #13 on:** September 09, 2016, 11:12:50 AM »

What face book page are you on because there was weirdo on one. I left most groups.

Incredulous · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2016, 07:54:49 PM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

What face book page are you on because there was weirdo on one. I left most groups.