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Author Topic: A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013  (Read 22654 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2014, 04:53:26 PM »
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  • .
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    This purported "click" of Bishop Fellay is utter foolishness.  It is entirely subjective.  It is subjectivism imported into the Church's doctrine.  This is what the unclean spirit of Vat.II relies on wholesale.  Bishop Fellay is resorting to the wiles and snares of the devil in this.  


    Foolishness indeed!  The Novus Ordo service is not Catholic, it is not a work of the Catholic Church and essentially has nothing to do with the Catholic Faith but that it was imposed upon the Church by the wicked enemies of thet same Church.

    Such fools who are clicked by this false ritual have very serious problems with their clarity about the nature of the Religion.


    Thank you, J.Paul -- your observation is helpful.  It's really important that we recognize the FALLACY of these little drops of poison that are being doled out by the SSPX priests and bishops (not the good ones but the Fellayites who are running the show, pretty much).





    Regarding the other theme, the "question of truth,"....................

    The fact that any discussion of this ambiguous nonsense proposition of Fr. Themann is met with silence on CathInfo is really disappointing.  Everyone is running away from it like it's radioactive or something.  

    What's the matter, members?  Too much trouble to think a little deeper for a few minutes?    

    Fr. Themann said,

    "Truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand."


    And when I hold this out and show how it is AMBIGUOUS, and DECEPTIVE and UNBECOMING FOR ANY PRIEST TO ASSERT, all I get is crickets?  



    This is a demonstration of Modernism in action.  The unclean spirit of Vatican II is alive and well, and it's eating into your own heart and soul, and you don't even know it.  Because if it were otherwise, you would be responding to this topic, which is found on 4 separate threads in 3 different forums, so far.  

    Modernism is a disease, and one of its symptoms is that you do not know that you are infected.  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #151 on: March 12, 2014, 05:51:08 PM »
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    Page 27

    So the council says that this (false) “right” to religious liberty is entirely unlimited as long as society does not erupt in violence!

    Instead of being “very, very limited,” [50.a] it is the same very broad “right” espoused by the Freemasons in Article 10 of the French Revolution’s 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man:  “No one can be molested for his opinions, even for his religious opinions, provided their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by law.”


    In the 10-31-12 SSPX priests’ newsletter, Cor Unum, the SSPX tried to explain away Bishop Fellay’s statements on religious liberty by telling its priests that:

           Bishop Fellay had the intention of making them [viz., Catholic
           News Service, who was interviewing him] understand that true
           religious liberty is much more limited than they think and that
           it does not involve a right to error. (51)

    Do you [Fr. Themann] really believe the SSPX’s explanation here?  Bishop Fellay says, “The Council is presenting a religious liberty ...”. Do you think he really meant “true religious liberty?”


    ----------------------XXX------------------------


    Father Themann, we have merely made a small start in presenting the vast catalogue of evidence (from the SSPX’s own mouth), answering your question: “Resistance to What?”

    We have only scratched the surface of the evidence which we could give, and it is as plain as day that the current SSPX has been slowly weakening for a long time.

    We limit ourselves to one more example.  This one is from Bishop Fellay’s 6-8-12 DICI interview, in which he makes many scandalous and poisonous statements.  

    Bishop Fellay says that he “would like to hope that ... Vatican II belongs to Tradition.” (52)  Saying this, Bishop Fellay avoids telling the essential truth:  that Vatican II does not belong to Catholic Tradition.  Instead Bishop Fellay “hopes” it does!  Any true traditional Catholic knows that Vatican II is a “counter-syllabus” and is the French Revolution in the Church.  Bishop Fellay’s “hope” that Vatican II is traditional, is like “hoping” that Martin Luther’s teachings are completely orthodox – we know it is a false and vain hope.


    You Falsely Deny that SSPX Priests are being Muzzled

    You were asked this question:  “Has there been any official edicts from the superior general for the Society not to talk about certain sensitive types of matters?” Disc 2, track 2, 49:00.

    And you responded: “People have actually asked me that and the answer is ‘no’, of course not.” Id. [52.a]

    Many, many times your superiors have given their priests directives which muzzle them against the increasing liberalism of the SSPX.  At the end of this letter, we enclose one of countless examples which might “refresh your memory.”  This example is a 6-7-12 letter from U.S. District Superior, Fr. Rostand, discussed below.

    This 6-7-12 email letter arrived right before Bishop Fellay’s 6-8-12 DICI interview would be made public.  This interview was packed with liberalism and compromises from beginning to end.  Bishop Fellay knew there could be a strong reaction from some of his

    ______________________________
    [50.a]   [As +Fellay eagerly asserts in his interview with CNS with much feigned unction (which captures the attention of women, apparently)]

    51.    http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/component/content/article/81-all/true-arguments/243-menzingen-s-revealing-10-31-2012-internal-letter?highlight=YToxOntpOjA7czo4OiIxMC0zMS0xMiI7fQ==

    52.    6-8-12 DICI interview at  http://www.dici.org/en/news/interview-with-bishop-bernard-fellay-on-relations-with-rome/


    [52.a]    Fr. Themann does not specify whose answer this is (he says, "THE answer is..." indicating that he could be unwilling to say that it is HIS answer, but rather it could be an answer he was TOLD to give), but it likely would SEEM to be the answer he would have received from his superiors, when he had asked them, "What should I tell them when they ask this question about priests being muzzled?" (Presuming he had asked such a question) In the next 2 pages the possibility that Fr. Themann was not personally given such directives is explored, however, there is much more to the story............

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    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #152 on: March 12, 2014, 09:39:18 PM »
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  • Alas Neil, the troops are weary and weakened.
    They need to wake up out of their stupor!

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #153 on: March 13, 2014, 03:00:20 AM »
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    (from pg. 27):

    You Falsely Deny that SSPX Priests are being Muzzled

    You were asked this question:  “Has there been any official edicts from the superior general for the Society not to talk about certain sensitive types of matters?” Disc 2, track 2, 49:00.

    And you responded: “People have actually asked me that and the answer is ‘no’, of course not.” Id. [52.a]

    Many, many times your superiors have given their priests directives which muzzle them against the increasing liberalism of the SSPX.  At the end of this letter, we enclose one of countless examples which might “refresh your memory.”  This example is a 6-7-12 letter from U.S. District Superior, Fr. Rostand, discussed below.

    This 6-7-12 email letter arrived right before Bishop Fellay’s 6-8-12 DICI interview would be made public.  This interview was packed with liberalism and compromises from beginning to end.  Bishop Fellay knew there could be a strong reaction from some of his
    Page 28

    more anti-liberal priests.  Therefore, the districts contacted their priests to make sure they were muzzled.

    Three days before the 6-8-12 interview [on June 5th], Fr. Rostand had a conference call with his priors to organize them to muzzle their priests.  (See the 6-7-12 Rostand letter [found on page 31 of this issue], below.) (53)  Then Fr. Rostand followed up with his priors by email letter, reminding them to keep a short leash on their priests. Id. [This "short leash" directive is contained in the exhibit e-mail on p. 31.]

    Fr. Rostand’s letter gives a few “reminders” to his priors and tells them to “communicate these reminders to your priests.” Id.  Fr. Rostand cautions his priors that his “reminders” are for the priests only. Id.  He reminds his priors that his “reminders” should neither be disclosed to laymen nor published or posted on the internet. Id.  

    Fr. Rostand reminds the priors that no priest is permitted to prepare any formal written article connected to the situation in Rome. Id.  These “formal communications” are “reserved to the General House” in Menzingen.
    Id.

    However, Fr. Rostand tells his priests they should speak about the SSPX’s situation with Rome but should only “speak generally” [53.a] and should repeat what is contained in the “public communications by the superiors.” Id. Fr. Rostand reminds the priors that “if a priest is unsure of what may be said/should be said, then that priest should contact the District House for further information” about what to say. Id.  (emphasis added)

    Fr. Rostand reminds the priors that they should not give their “own opinions” and they should “avoid bitterness and undue criticism of our brother priests.” Id.

    Fr. Rostand tells his priests that:

            The charity of respect for, and loyalty to, our lawful
            superiors, demanded by the virtue of obedience, means
            allowing them the opportunity to present and explain
            things at the opportune time. Id.

    Lastly, Fr. Rostand reminds his priests of the SSPX rules for preventing the sharing of information by the laity. He says:

      ∙     Beware recording/publishing of sermons, etc., which can
              easily be used against us. (54)

    ∙     Remind the faithful that they are not to record or publish
              (or even simply pass along to a friend via the internet)
              without your express consent.

    ∙     Remind the faithful that this is not an arbitrary decision, or
              one designed to keep sermons hidden, but rather exists
              to prevent the spread of discord, and the fomenting of
              a revolutionary spirit. Id.

    Now Fr. Themann, because you are not a prior, perhaps you have never seen this 6-7-12 letter before, and perhaps you have never heard about the similar district directives to the priors.  Perhaps you have naively thought that your own superior was the only one muzzling his priest-subordinates.  Because of your non-superior status, you really were not in a position to speak with knowledge about an edict passed down by the superior general, through the district superiors, to the priors, and then to the regular priests like you.


    __________________________
    53.     See, the analysis here:  http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/the-truth/problems-with-bp-fellay/bishop-fellay/bishop-fellay-s-dici-interview

    [53.a]     [This EDICT that Fr. Rostand doles out by e-mail, that his priests should only speak in general terms regarding the SSPX-Rome situation:  Fr. Themann is doing JUST THAT (see footnote 52.a) throughout this "Resistance to What?" diatribe.  Whether his complicity is knowing or innocent is for him to decide, and for his judge to pronounce.  Any of us who know a fence-sitter SSPX priest, we ought to ask him: "Were you informed by your superior that you must only speak in general terms regarding the situation between Rome and the Society?"  A more pointed question would be, "Were you encouraged to be vague or ambiguous in describing the SSPX-Rome dealings?" Be sure not to explore the latter question until first you test the waters with the former question.]

    54.     One example of this tactic of the current SSPX, is at your conference in St. Marys where the faithful were forbidden to record your conference. Disc 1, track 1, 1:20.  Was the current SSPX afraid that the recordings of the laity might contain inconvenient material edited out of the official SSPX recording?  If not, why does the SSPX care, if the laity make their own recordings of a free conference which would be distributed free, as a 2-CD set?


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #154 on: March 13, 2014, 03:19:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy

    Alas Neil, the troops are weary and weakened.
    They need to wake up out of their stupor!



    Dear holysoulsacademy, I have no claim to not being weary or weakened, myself!  It has taken me ever since mid-November (4 months!) to post these pages of this one issue, Recusant #12, and now, we're on the verge of issue #15.  All the posts of Issue 12 are here on this one thread for easy reference.

    Curiously, it's one of the most outstanding issues, but it is the only one, so far, that departs from the usual format of the other 13 of them.  

    A year ago, I came to the realization that TheRecusant has all the marks of being an historical benchmark for what happened to the SSPX to answer a lot of questions future generations might have.  I only had to order a few back-issues to be up to speed on everything from day one.  I now have a stack of them, 14 issues, and counting, and they are absolutely stellar.

    Anyone coming into this cold has plenty of catching up to do, but at least here is the body of work that can be a first step to knowing the truth.  

    It seems that the entire world is at war with the truth.  The easy thing to do would be to ignore all this.  It is a constant struggle to keep up with the hard news, and it is the most natural thing to become weary and weakened in the process.  

    The Fellayite SSPX priests and faithful are doing the easy thing, and slacking off.

    Are we going to be like them, or are we going to be fighters, like ABL?

    I recently gave copies of one letter found on page 10 of Issue 10, to three friends whom I knew would appreciate it.  They were quite thankful.  One of them asked me, "What is the Recusant?"  Now I have to find some select pages from several issues to copy for her, and if she has a computer, provide for her a list of Ecclesia-Militans archives containing PDF files of all the Recusant issues.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #155 on: March 13, 2014, 09:45:09 AM »
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    Consequently, Fr. Themann or any other SSPX priest, would be literally "obedient" by answering any questions about this exhibit e-mail from Fr. Rostand by making a vague reference to how we should not pay any attention to 'Internet rumours'.

    Notice, he shouldn't identify the e-mail as an 'Internet rumour', because that would be disobedient!  

    Bishop Fellay (the subtle bishop!) never has (and probably never will) exemplified what he means by 'Internet rumour' because he does not want to be responsible in the future for having made any such specific claim.  Like any liberal politician, he strives for ambiguous words so as to leave himself an 'out' in the future.  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #156 on: March 15, 2014, 02:09:41 AM »
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    (from page 28)
    Now Fr. Themann, because you are not a prior, perhaps you have never seen this 6-7-12 letter before, and perhaps you have never heard about the similar district directives to the priors.   Perhaps  you  have  naively  thought  that  your  own  superior  was  the  only  one muzzling his priest-subordinates. Because of your non-superior status, you really were not in a position to speak with knowledge about an edict passed down by the superior general, through the district superiors, to the priors, and then to the regular priests like you.

    Page 29

    For  that  reason,  you  should  have  expressed  your  lack  of  information  with  which  to answer the question one way or another, instead of denying that the superior general is muzzling his priests.

    But do you really claim to be ignorant that the SSPX priests are being muzzled by their superiors? Either way, to the laity whom you misled for 2½ hours earlier this year, the result is the same. But there will be a difference for you at your Judgment.


    The “Reaction” Which You Say Is Lacking, to the SSPX Liberalism


    Besides your false denial that the SSPX priests are being muzzled, you give this “proof” that the SSPX has not changed: “[If] I would start announcing the mass times across the street at the novus ordo church, all of you in this room  would react.” Disc 2, track 2, 50:00.   You  say  it  shows  that  the  SSPX  has  not  drifted  into  liberalism  because  if  the SSPX did drift, then SSPX priests would “react”.  Id.

    Some  priests  did  react.   They  are  sometimes  called  the  “Resistance”.   Actually  your example  is  rather  close  to  what  the  SSPX  did  on  its  Polish  District  website.   As mentioned above, that SSPX website posted the ordination schedules of the Ecclesia Dei compromise groups, earlier this year.

    It  is  true  that  most  SSPX  priests  did  not  react  publicly  to  the  SSPX’s  accelerated liberalism beginning in 2012. But the current SSPX situation is, as it  were, the 1960s within the SSPX. Fifty years ago, in the 1960s, most good priests did not react.  Instead, living silently with compromise, they gradually became callous to, and then embraced, the conciliar revolution.

    We should not expect the majority of priests or people to react to the slow liberalizing of the SSPX any more than the majority of priests or people reacted to the slow liberalizing of the conciliar church in the 1960s.  Those who think that traditional Catholic priests and laymen today are somehow a stronger, better group than the average priests and laymen in the 1960s, give themselves way too much credit.  Some of us writing this letter can make this comparison from our own knowledge.

    Cardinal  Ratzinger  recognized  that  gradualism  is  the  key  to  avoiding  a  resistance. [54.a] Quoting and citing him, the Remnant summarized his opinion as follows:

           the  imposition  of  the  Novus  Ordo  upon  the  faithful  
           in  a  mere  six months was a great mistake. Cardinal
           Ratzinger believed it should have taken  at  least  ten  
           years.   Why?   Cardinal  Ratzinger  knew  that  a
           fundamental  change  on  the  scale  of  introducing  a  
           new  Mass  must  be gradually  revealed  to  the  faithful  
           over  a  long  period  of  time  if  they were to eventually
           accept it. The New Mass being imposed practically all at
           once over  six  months  was  not  enough  time.  This  
           rapid implementation  led  to  many  leaving  the  Church  
           and the  formation  of resistance groups such as the SSPX.

    _________________________
    [54.a]     [Comparison should be made here to the "soft Communism" of Antonio Gramschi, and Italian political theoretician who proposed that the 'hard communism' of Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Fidel Castro was no longer as effective as a more gradual version, which has been adopted in most of Europe and in the United States after World War II.]


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #157 on: March 18, 2014, 11:37:55 AM »
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  • .
    I forgot to add the footnote #55 after this:

    (from page 29)
    Cardinal  Ratzinger  recognized  that  gradualism  is  the  key  to  avoiding  a  resistance. [54.a] Quoting and citing him, the Remnant summarized his opinion as follows:

           the  imposition  of  the  Novus  Ordo  upon  the  faithful  
           in  a  mere  six months was a great mistake. Cardinal
           Ratzinger believed it should have taken  at  least  ten  
           years.   Why?   Cardinal  Ratzinger  knew  that  a
           fundamental  change  on  the  scale  of  introducing  a  
           new  Mass  must  be gradually  revealed  to  the  faithful  
           over  a  long  period  of  time  if  they were to eventually
           accept it. The New Mass being imposed practically all at
           once over  six  months  was  not  enough  time.  This  
           rapid implementation  led  to  many  leaving  the  Church  
           and the formation of resistance groups such as the SSPX. (55)
    Page 30

    Cardinal  Ratzinger  is  correct.   The  slower  the  revolution  moves,  the  fewer  people  will react.   The  SSPX  revolution  has  been  moving  slowly  for  many  years.   For  example, GREC began only a couple of years after Archbishop Lefebvre died. It was only when the  SSPX  got  impatient  in  2012  and  tried  to  move  too  fast,  that  it  encountered  open resistance. The SSPX has learned to be more patient since then. (56)


    Use of SSPX Internal Docuмents

    Multiple SSPX priests disclosed the three SSPX internal docuмents used above, because of the deception they contain.  We hold that the justness of their revealing these deceptive docuмents  (and  us  using  them  here)  is  similar  to  Pope  Pius  IX  and  Pope  Leo  XIII commanding the publication of the  Alta Vendita  private papers of the freemasons, for the good of the Church.

    Unlike  your  own  approach  to  prudence,  we  are  acting  on  principle,  in  matters  of prudence.    Here are the principles we used when publicly disclosing these three internal SSPX docuмents. We hold the principle that private docuмents should generally remain private, just like a person’s particular sins should generally remain hidden.

    However, there is a superseding principle which applies here and in the case of those two good popes’ publication of the freemasons’ private papers. That superseding principle is that the privacy of papers should not be used as a cloak of darkness to assist in subverting souls.

    This  is  like  the  superseding  principle  that  a  person’s  private  sins  must  be  disclosed  on some occasions,  e.g., if it is the best way you have to prevent a  child molester  from being hired as your young nephew’s piano teacher, for private lessons. So, if you and the SSPX leadership don’t want SSPX internal docuмents revealed, then tell the truth, especially on matters having a significant effect on many souls!


    A Final Word About Your Conference

    Because you talked so long (2 ½ hours!), our letter was unavoidably long. We addressed many  of  your  points  in  this  open  letter,  attempting  to  help  the  faithful  and  correct  the scandal  you  have  caused.   We  certainly  have  not  addressed  all  of  your  errors  but  we addressed as many as we did to give the faithful a basis for assessing whether they should consider you a suitable guide and whether they should consider you and the SSPX worthy
    of their trust.

    Again,  you can contact us at  Father.Themann.Answered@gmail.com  and  we  would be glad to discuss this further.

    We will pray for you; please pray for us!

    Yours truly in Christ.


    _________________________________
    55.      Remnant, The Ides of April, posted April 10, 2012, http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0415-dupuy-ides-of-april-sspx-rome.htm [Note:  Historically, the SSPX has always been the Resistance!]

    56.      See, e.g., http://www.therecusant.com/grec-book-review

    [56.a]    The Resistance was born of the Menzingen-denizens trying to advance the revolution TOO FAST.  Just as Ratzinger said about Paul VI's Novus Ordo agenda, that he tried to make it happen too fast, and if Paul VI had gradually brought it in over a 10-year period then +Lefebvre and other reactionaries would not have risen up with their Resistance at that time.  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #158 on: March 19, 2014, 09:59:27 AM »
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    I wasn't able to download page 31 alone as an image, so that I could post it here.  I could scan page 31 from my physical issue #12 but I'm not doing that.  If another member would like to post an image of Page 31, that would be great.

    If anyone has a copy of Adobe Acrobat (not just "Reader") or Foxit Phantom PDF editor, you could post a copy here of page 31 (without showing all the other pages too) as an image.

    If you want to see page 31, download the PDF from ecclesiamilitans.com at the following address:

    http://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/the_recusant_-_issue_12_-_december_2013_supplementary.pdf


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