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Author Topic: Shroud of Turin  (Read 2984 times)

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Offline sea leopard

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Shroud of Turin
« on: February 13, 2014, 04:59:20 PM »
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  • Years ago I spent a couple hours with the expert photographer Mr. Barry Schwartz discussing his hands on investigation of The Shroud. He has the only photographs of it from that time.  The smaller and full scale repros that are available are his work.  I reccomend his coffee table big book  The Shroud.
    Info from his emails to me and ROME, February 13, 2014 (Zenit.org)


    New Research Supports Authenticity of Holy Shroud of Turin
    Scientists Believe Image Caused by Radiation from Earthquake in 33 AD

    ROME, February 13, 2014 (Zenit.org) - A group scientists in Italy have claimed that neutron radiation caused by an earthquake in 33 AD could have induced the image that many believe to be Christ on the Holy Shroud of Turin.

    They also believe the seismic activity at that time led to false carbon dating of the cloth in 1988.

    Until now, no plausible physical reason has been given to explain how the image appears on the Shroud through radiation. But the group of researchers, led by Alberto Carpinteri of the Politecnico di Torino in Italy, has proposed these findings in an article published in Springer's journal Meccanica. The findings were published online on Feb. 11.

    Carpinteri's team believes that high-frequency pressure waves generated in the Earth's crust during earthquakes are the source of such neutron emissions. Their findings are based on piezonuclear fission reactions, which can be triggered when very brittle rock specimens are crushed under a press machine.

    Analagously, the researchers believe that neutron flux increments, in correspondence to seismic activity, could be a result of the same reactions. A group of Russian scientists found a noticeable increase in neutron flux in earthquakes over a certain magnitude, leading the researchers to consider the possibility that neutron emissions could have induced the image on the Shroud.

    Carpinteri’s team experiments have confirmed that “oxidative phenomena” generated by earthquakes can provide 3D images on cloth. “Moreover, a further effect of neutron irradiation could have provided a wrong radiocarbon dating due to an increment in C14-6 nuclei in the linen fibres,” they wrote. The 1988 findings claimed the Shroud was at most 728 years old.

    The earthquake theory is backed up by historical records which show that major tremors in Old Jerusalem took place at that time – 33 A.D., the time widely believed to be of Christ’s Death and Resurrection. The accounts of such seismic activity in connection with the Resurrection are also mentioned in the Gospels.

    Matthew the Evangelist wrote that there was a strong earthquake at the moment of Christ’s death: “When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”, he wrote (Matthew 27: 54).

    He also wrote there was another even stronger earthquake at the time of the Resurrection:  “And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.”  (Matthew 28:2–4).

    Joseph of Arimathea also wrote in ‘The Narrative of Joseph’: “And, behold, after He had said this, Jesus gave up the ghost, on the day of the preparation, at the ninth hour. And there was darkness over all the earth; and from a great earthquake that happened, the sanctuary fell down, and the wing of the temple.”

    Further evidence of strong seismic activity at the time of Christ’s Death and Resurrection was also recorded in ancient Greek literature. A historian named Thallos, who probably lived in Rome in the middle of the first century, also spoke of the darkening of the sky and an earthquake on that day.

    The work of Thallos has been lost, but the quotation of the passage about Jesus had been inserted in the Chronographia of Sextus Julius Africanus, a Christian Palestinian author who died in Nicopolis around the 240 A.D.

    Julius Africanus criticizes Thallos for asserting that there could be an eclipse on the day of Passover, which occurs in the full moon period, but he does not dispute that the same day there was an earthquake.

    “Recent neutron emission detections have led to consider the Earth’s crust as a relevant source of neutron flux variations,” Carpinteri’s team conclude in their article, and present the “hypothesis that neutron emissions from a historical earthquake have led to appreciable effects on Shroud linen fibres.”

    They add that considering the historical docuмents attesting a “disastrous earthquake” in the “Old Jerusalem” in 33 A.D., they “assume that a seismic event with magnitude ranging from the 8th to the 9th degree in the Richter scale could have produced a thermal neutron flux.”

    “Through thermal neutron capture by nitrogen nuclei, this event may have contributed both to the image formation, and to the increment in C 6 14 [carbon dating] on linen fibres of the Shroud.”

    The radiation theory still needs further tests, leading to a group of scientists currently petitioning Pope Francis to allow further analysis of the Shroud that will confirm or rule out the radiation theory.

    The Vatican, although never definitive about it, has always hinted at the Shroud’s authenticity. On a visit to the Shroud in 2010, Benedict XVI said it is “an Icon written in blood; the blood of a man who was scourged, crowned with thorns, crucified and whose right side was pierced. The Image impressed upon the Shroud is that of a dead man, but the blood speaks of his life.”

    Pope Francis last month announced an exposition of the Shroud would take place between April and August of 2015 in Turin.





    Offline sea leopard

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 10:26:16 PM »
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  • More good Info.

    Main Number One   "Shroud of Turin"  website


    http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm


    Is the Shroud of Turin In Relation to the Old Jerusalem Historical Earthquake?

        Once again, the Shroud of Turin is in the news, this time because of a new paper titled, Is the Shroud of Turin In Relation to the Old Jerusalem Historical Earthquake? just published in the journal Meccanica. Authored by A. Carpinteri, G. Lacidogna and O. Borla, the paper asserts that neutron radiation generated by a major earthquake could have been responsible for the Shroud's image and could have also modified the cloth in a manner that might have skewed the results of the radiocarbon dating. It has long been our policy not to comment on news releases until the claims they make can be properly evaluated by qualified experts in the related disciplines. However, due to the volume of mail we have been receiving and the fact that the entire paper is readily available online, we decided to make a brief comment on the paper until a more in-depth review can be written by an expert in the field and published in our next regular update.

        We should first point out that the idea of radiation creating the image on the Shroud or skewing the radiocarbon dating is not a new one. Over the past few decades it has been proposed by a number of Shroud scholars, including Dr. Jean-Baptiste Rinaudo and Mark Antonacci. After reading the article carefully (and reminding you that this is far from my area of expertise), the only apparent new information it includes is the possibility that the proposed neutron radiation was produced as a by-product of a major earthquake. The authors also provide references to credible evidence that such events can and do occur. However, the issue of radiation and the Shroud was addressed in an article titled, The Shroud of Turin: Radiation Effects, Aging & Image Formation, written by Ray Rogers just before his death and published on Shroud.com posthumously in 2005. Rogers was a chemist at Los Alamos National Laboratory, the head of STURP's chemistry group and an expert in the effects of radiation on a wide variety of materials. He based his conclusions on examining and comparing a number of irradiated flax samples, including actual fibers of the Shroud. Once again, you will have to read the materials and decide how significant they are for yourself. We hope to have more information on this in our next update.

        Posted February 13, 2014


    Offline Machabees

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 08:47:22 PM »
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  • The "earthquake radiation theory" of the Holy Shroud is another agnostic debate and defiance of the pure resurrection exclaiming the Divinity of the Son of God -as the CAUSE and ONLY source- of the "radiation" imprinting the image given for our times of un-belief for our century.

    The Modernists always muse at the Faith in God, as they also do in calling Holy Scripture just a bunch of "stories".

    St. Thomas, the doubter, pray for us...

    Offline PG

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 06:34:29 PM »
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  • Is the consensus that traditionalists accept the authenticity of the shroud?
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Nadir

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 04:38:20 PM »
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  • Yes!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline icterus

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 04:46:03 PM »
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  • Really, what's the alternate hypothesis?  That the most anatomically correct piece of artwork ever made on Earth was made, hundreds of years before any great scientists had collected such information by an artist who would have been the greatest of his century in addition to the greatest natural scientist of his day...who remained otherwise completely unknown?  

    Nope.  It seems that authenticity it far more likely.  

    The biggest problem the Shroud has is, of course, Catholics.  Italians, to put a finer point on it.  The Shroud, which has every mark of being authentic (except the radiocarbon data, which is a problem, but the explanation for that anomaly may hold water.  We'll see.) is constantly beset by the crackpot theories of mad Italians.  This perennial comic farce ensures that the secular world will never take the Shroud seriously, nor examine the striking claims made by its very existence.  


    Offline Mama ChaCha

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 05:06:56 PM »
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  • Since they're all about proof, I say "prove it!"  Make me a shroud with rocks and radiation that exactly reproduces the shroud of Turin. Idk about any of you guys, but in all of the earthquakes I've lived through, I've never seen images radiated onto anything.

    After the atom bomb tests, there were faint silhouettes, and that was from an atomic bomb, barely far enough away not to burn the acrylic polyester fabric of draperies. The majority of those silhouettes have since faded, so it seems pretty obvious that radiation isn't the cause.

    Better luck with your next asinine theory.

    Hey, maybe next time, they'll say the coloration comes from super-duper microscopic bugs that just happened to die on the cloth while somehow also arranging themselves into the image of beaten, crucified Jesus. Seems just about as likely as this theory.
    Matthew 6:34
    " Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof."

    Offline PG

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
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  • I hate to spoil a party, but:

    Don't forget about the nail mark in the wrist.  The scriptures say that the hands were pierced.  

    And, it is too suspicious that there is really no history of it prior to the 14th century.



    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Mama ChaCha

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    « Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 08:15:07 PM »
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  • 'Hand' from the Greek thenar, which included hand and forearm, perhaps?
    Matthew 6:34
    " Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof."

    Offline adorotedevote789

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 09:45:52 PM »
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  • Currently my church is running an exhibition on the Shroud of Turin.
    I must say that I am amazed and delighted but it should just stop at that.
    I hope no one used this as a religious adoration or I do discourage adoration of any kind religious relics - bones etc.
    I see people do it everytime but it is not in my place to discourage them for there are some who might use it a form of hope in their lives.

    Shroud of Turin...god wills but its just a piece of linen.
    Amazed but don't look too much into, whether it's a genuine piece, i am sure the time we have to have such thoughts, it's better we put it to better use, like thinking about God and always asking for forgiveness. God Bless

    Offline icterus

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 09:51:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    Don't forget about the nail mark in the wrist. The scriptures say that the hands were pierced.


    So, why on Earth would a 14th century artist paint pierced wrists?

    Answer:  they wouldn't.  They would paint pierced hands.  


    Offline Elsa Zardini

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    « Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 06:07:46 AM »
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  • Offline Neil Obstat

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 06:26:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mama ChaCha
    Since they're all about proof, I say "prove it!"  Make me a shroud with rocks and radiation that exactly reproduces the shroud of Turin. Idk about any of you guys, but in all of the earthquakes I've lived through, I've never seen images radiated onto anything.



    Funny that they would publish this hypothesis, without having a sample sheet or blanket or burlap sack with some kind of image on it that they produced artificially from some earthquake-generated radiation source.  This business of saying that it's possible, or arguable, or within the realm of perchance, is a bit like pre-empirical scientific method procedures from 800 years ago, when a group of "doctors" would sit around a table and discuss what tissues and bones are inside the head of a cow, before someone came along who said, "How about let's cut open this cow's head and see what's inside it?"  What a novel concept.


    Quote
    After the atom bomb tests, there were faint silhouettes, and that was from an atomic bomb, barely far enough away not to burn the acrylic polyester fabric of draperies. The majority of those silhouettes have since faded, so it seems pretty obvious that radiation isn't the cause.



    The silhouettes after the a-bomb tests and the ones left on walls in Heroshima and Nagasaki were due to radiation immensely more powerful than anything a mere earthquake could have produced.  Plus, it is a different KIND of radiation!  Earthquakes don't produce Uranium fusion radiation.


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline sea leopard

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »
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  • I thought trad cats were, to use an expression from, Lake Woebegon, above average in intelligence and good looking; well avitars don't count but comments sure put to rest the intelligence part.

    Of all the different professionals on the STURP Team, non were Catholic.

    Rome hand picked each as the best in their field and not Catholic to avoid the charge of bias.

    None of them say it is "paint"

    Go to the library, read one of many books.

    Go to Amazon dot com and buy a book.

    Talk to a real Priest.

    Goggle it and read the truth and the lies and fiction.

    Yes, one smart person; re, the hands/wrist (Bible words) translation.

    Yes, much evidence prior to 1450.

    Types of pollen in the cloth, found only in the various locations of the shroud starting in Israel.

    Blood type same as other "evidence"  Yes, Jesus had  Blood type (unknown then.)

    for non google types

    https://www.shroud.com/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin














    OK,  That is enough to get you to the 5th grade,
    Keep going, there is so much more to learn.

    I have been following this for over 17 years on the internet and University Libraries and local library borrowings from other places.

    Right click on photo to get small jpg for your pc.
    I don't know why it makes a super big image on this forum compared to small image on mine.

    Good Day and God Bless

    SS-483

    Offline sea leopard

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    Shroud of Turin
    « Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 12:14:07 PM »
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  • Mea Culpa

    Belay my comment about intelligence.

    For the English,  I AM  sorry!

    Sometime I jump too fast.

    GB us all and the USA.