Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Incredulous on September 07, 2016, 02:20:39 PM
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Hey fellow trads... Take part in our poll!
A few days ago, videos of Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X, were on the web, showing him nervously reciting to New Zealand faithful, what the offer of a Personal Prelature to the SSPX by the Vatican looked like.
We don't know much details about the properties, dogmatic compromises ...etc., but who cares?
So our Cathinfo poll (open for 7 days) asks you your opinion on the nutty offer. Please, have a say!
When If Francis offers a Prelature to Society of St Pius X (SSPX), should they accept it?
Cathinfo September 7, 2016
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Thanks for putting it here, since I surely will never join Twitter.
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Please vote in the new poll, "Should the SSPX accept a Prelature deal from the Pope?"
http://www.cathinfo.com/poll/sspx/
You don't have to be a member of CathInfo OR Twitter to participate in this poll.
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A few days ago, videos of Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X, were on the web, showing him nervously reciting to New Zealand faithful, what the offer of a Personal Prelature to the SSPX by the Vatican looked like.
We don't know much details about the properties, dogmatic compromises ...etc., but who cares?
So I wonder why New Zealand is the guinea pig congregation.
Wasn't there a precedent for +Fellay making a far-out announcement in New Zealand first?
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I am not a fan of straight having a straight yes/no poll on the topic. My opinion on the matter is that it depends entirely on the details of the offer and the conditions under which it is offered.
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I am not a fan of straight having a straight yes/no poll on the topic. My opinion on the matter is that it depends entirely on the details of the offer and the conditions under which it is offered.
And that's the beauty of a prelature... only Francis and the inner xSPX sanctum know what the conditions are.
The average Catholic in the pews will never know.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NR6lxJkhnY4/TCXnRhr7oLI/AAAAAAAAE6k/mRoitloK2IY/s1600/062509-st-josemaria-escriva%5B1%5D.jpg)
St. Escriva... founder of Opus judie and the prelature rackets, please guide us on how to vote!
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they should not accept it, but they will. People need to get off this sinking ship that is the SSPX
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Are we to understand that the SocietySPX is being offered the prelature or is that honour being offered to the person in charge of that Society, so that is may become a personal feather on the cap of the top leadership of SSPX, towing along through nice rhetoric the followers of SSPX -- regardless the quite obvious consequences -- which other traditional groups have experienced putting themselves under the "care" of the present hierarchy in Rome.
One would have to study very closely the conditions laid down; regulations drawn up; practices adhered to; dogmatic and statutory principles; etc. before a yes or no vote could be given whether it would be wise for SSPX to find itself in an irreversible situation once accepted an overseeing by Rome.
The "honour" of a personal grandeur (read -"vainglory") or prelature is a very great temptation for many a person, humility and the cause for proper conduct missing, as well as the intellectualy capacity for objective observation of the current environment and political persuasions.
Vatican confirms SSPX is being offered Personal Prelature ...
Jun 14, 2012 ... The Vatican has confirmed that the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X is being offered the status of a personal prelature as part of a deal to heal ...
www.catholicnewsagency.com/.../vatican-confirms-sspx-is-being-offered- personal-prelature/
May God's Will prevail for the wellbeing of all concerned.
Your in J.M.J.
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From my earliest days as a convert to the Catholic Faith (long before Vatican II), I was taught to keep clear of bad company, and also to avoid the occasions of sin. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the present occupants of the seats of power in the Vatican would undeniably be bad company, and I have little doubt that their attitude to Tradition, and the lack of good example in their daily lives, could surreptitiously weaken my Faith and lead me into occasions of sin.
I have no wish to go along that path, and I cannot believe that the Director General of the SSPX would want to take it either.
I support all four of the intentions behind Bishop Fellay's 2016/17 Rosary Crusade, and I trust that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will protect us during these interminable discussions.
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And that's the beauty of a prelature... only Francis and the inner xSPX sanctum know what the conditions are.
Exactly! The 'sheeple' will be told to 'trust your superiors', 'trust in providence', etc. Catholics must trust God, and follow his Truth, not trust men!
One would have to study very closely the conditions laid down; regulations drawn up; practices adhered to; dogmatic and statutory principles; etc. before a yes or no vote could be given whether it would be wise for SSPX to find itself in an irreversible situation once accepted an overseeing by Rome.
Exactly! Other groups have done the same thing, with horrific consequences. And, yes, this is an IRREVERSIBLE decsion.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the present occupants of the seats of power in the Vatican would undeniably be bad company, and I have little doubt that their attitude to Tradition, and the lack of good example in their daily lives, could surreptitiously weaken my Faith and lead me into occasions of sin.
Exactly!
...and I trust that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will protect us during these interminable discussions.
Our Lady will protect you (and those who are open to the Truth) by letting you see the evils that will happen, as you describe above. She will protect you by showing you that the sspx ship is sinking so you can get off. She WILL NOT save the sspx against the leadership's bad will/decisions, but she can save the individuals who want her guidance. We all have free will (and so do the leaders of the sspx); not even Our Lady can save someone from a wrong decision, if they are obstinate (and either the sspx leadership is obstinate, or they are mentally retarded).
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Imagine a scene, where Columbo individually questions Bp. Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger, Phluger and Max Krah about:
money, real-estate and their motivations to put themselves under Francis.
(http://cdn.cinemur.fr/series/original/columbo-465_52387b11b7da1.jpg)
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SSPX will nominate 3 of its own to be their bishop, independent
of all other ordinary bishops who share the same lands, and
there are no terms here, they don't have to accept any of V2,
don't have to do anything, except become a prelature like Opus Dei.
SSPX was never full blown sedevacantist.
Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable
excommunication.
Better to have tradition in than have it without, because
without can ALWAYS be maintained, and sure it will be,
there is nothing to lose.
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
It's not our job to transform Rome. Our job is to keep the faith, and that's not going to happen when you become part of the "Borg Collective".
Rome to the SSPX: "Lower your standards and surrender your principals. We will add your ideological and financial distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"
Any idiot knows that when you're dealing with infectious diseases such as heresy, you put barriers between you and the one infected, for the sake of self-preservation.
"A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." (Titus 3:10-11)
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My family and I attended our final SSPX Mass this past Sunday (a three-hour, one-way drive; it's the closest Mass we have). If we have to become home-aloners, so be it. I will not compromise.
"Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?" -- 2 Corinthians 6:14-15
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SSPX will nominate 3 of its own to be their bishop, independent
of all other ordinary bishops who share the same lands, and
there are no terms here, they don't have to accept any of V2,
don't have to do anything, except become a prelature like Opus Dei.
SSPX was never full blown sedevacantist.
Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable
excommunication.
Better to have tradition in than have it without, because
without can ALWAYS be maintained, and sure it will be,
there is nothing to lose.
Excommunication from WHAT, exactly, a brood of vipers? I'll take my chances and let God sort it out.
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Snowball, watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7blEY2LHlFI) all the way through. When you're done, you'll have a better handle on why Rome is pushing for a deal:
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It's like trying to convert the cannibal from the inside...
It may not work well at all, except for the cannibal. :ready-to-eat:
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Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable
excommunication.
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read here.
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Charlemagne:
Excommunication from WHAT, exactly, a brood of vipers? I'll take my chances and let God sort it out.
Yeah, the exact same question occurred to me. Excommunication from what? The early 1st. century disciples were thrown out of the ѕуηαgσgυє. It doesn't seem to have hurt the Christian movement that much.
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Charlemagne: Excommunication from WHAT, exactly, a brood of vipers? I'll take my chances and let God sort it out.
Yeah, the exact same question occurred to me. Excommunication from what? The early 1st. century disciples were thrown out of the ѕуηαgσgυє. It doesn't seem to have hurt the Christian movement that much.
Interesting you should say "the ѕуηαgσgυє".
We're ALSO being excommunicated from a mere ѕуηαgσgυє -- considering how the Conciliar Church thinks of "our elder brothers" and those "who still have a valid Covenant with God".
To those in the Conciliar Church, it's completely unacceptable to think of the Jews as needing conversion anymore. The Conciliar Church has completely sold out to the ѕуηαgσgυє, along with many of its creations, such as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and Communism (just look at Pope Francis).
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Do you want schism or a chance to change Rome from within ?
If you want schism, then ask someone to accept the primacy
of the Church, in your estimation of things, and if they accept,
you'll be the real Catholic church. Do you think Williamson would
accept that proposal ? Probably not !
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The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now? Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX.
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Do you want schism or a chance to change Rome from within ?
If you want schism, then ask someone to accept the primacy
of the Church, in your estimation of things, and if they accept,
you'll be the real Catholic church. Do you think Williamson would
accept that proposal ? Probably not !
Was St. Athanasius in schism when most of the Church had defected to Arianism?
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I am not a fan of straight having a straight yes/no poll on the topic. My opinion on the matter is that it depends entirely on the details of the offer and the conditions under which it is offered.
And that's the beauty of a prelature... only Francis and the inner xSPX sanctum know what the conditions are.
The average Catholic in the pews will never know.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NR6lxJkhnY4/TCXnRhr7oLI/AAAAAAAAE6k/mRoitloK2IY/s1600/062509-st-josemaria-escriva%5B1%5D.jpg)
St. Escriva... founder of Opus judie and the prelature rackets, please guide us on how to vote!
Opus Dei do possibly control the Spanish government (several cabinet members in it). It is just so unexpected that they do Sweet Fanny Adams for the Faith. I better tell Pope Francis. :jester:
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"Maurice" keeps a more careful eye on Opus Judei than the "Pope":
Opus Judei
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2007/02/opus-judei.html
Opus Judei Glosses on the тαℓмυdic Novus Ordo "Offertory"
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2010/02/opus-judei-glosses-on-тαℓмυdic-novus.html
Opus Judei Founder, Escriba Preached Kabbalistic Doctrine, Tikkun Olam
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2007/07/opus-judei-founder-escriba-preached.html
"Opus Dei" "Hebrew Catholic" Connection
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2008/02/opus-dei-hebrew-catholic-connection.html
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Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable
excommunication.
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read here.
You are one harsh woman.
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Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable
excommunication.
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read here.
You are one harsh woman.
yeah, well.. it's not dumb anyway..
:jester:
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...so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now?
SSPX never left Rome. Vatican flags still sit next to its alters and pictures of Francis are in the narthex.
Now some traditional Catholics believe Rome has fallen into heresy and is a new and different religion. And, they have deluded themselves into thinking that the SSPX was or is, a separate religious entity - perhaps keeping true to the faith. They have created, or bought, into some sort of "founding myth" that the Archbishop bravely saw the errors of Vatican II and went out and started (or maintained) his own religion to preserve true Christianity. They believe that Bishop Fellay became corrupt and is trying to "rejoin" Rome and destroy what the Archbishop created.
Even Roman authorities have made a similar mistake. Even minor Novos Ordo bishops often make the mistake in assuming that because SSPX isn't neatly within the Roman power structure it must be in schism.
The SSPX has always been part of Rome; Bishop Fellay is only seeking some sort of regularization.
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+ABL founded the SSPX under Canonical procedures and distanced it from the mass schism that overtook Rome.
The consiliar Church of Vatican II represents an infiltration and physical takeover of modernists, freemasons and jews who are in schism, with the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
Father Hesse explains this concept well, if you need more understanding of it.
Father Hesse explains consiliar schism (https://youtu.be/HypBf3WTuC4)
Bishop Fellay, knowing full well the dangers of the schismatic newChurch, has betrayed his predecessor and covertly acted for 17 years to put the SSPX back under the Consiliar schism.
Bishop Fellay knows Francis is blatantly defying the First Commandment with his organization of the One World Religion.
If you don't believe that, then here's another recent video of Francis proclaiming it.
Francis's One World Religion (https://youtu.be/07dPzM5q43c)
Bishop Fellay has become corrupt, is a liar... and is trying to lead all of Tradition to perdition.
So, put that into your pipe and smoke it. :detective:
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
SSPX would have about as much influence on Rome as fart in a hurricane. In fact, SSPX has more leverage in the negotiation process than it will have once it is "inside." But transforming Rome isn't even on the table in these negotiations--it's all about where the nigger entrances are going to be for SSPXers and how many nigger water fountains they can have.
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
SSPX would have about as much influence on Rome as fart in a hurricane. In fact, SSPX has more leverage in the negotiation process than it will have once it is "inside." But transforming Rome isn't even on the table in these negotiations--it's all about where the nigger entrances are going to be for SSPXers and how many nigger water fountains they can have.
Your imagery is definitely Southern.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Katrina_2nd_landfall.jpg)
And let's not forget, the other modern sins....
(https://icons.wxug.com/data/wximagenew/a/apphotos/142-800.jpg)
These Hurricanes, are man-made and named only after white women.
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...The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now? Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX.
SSPX never left Rome. Vatican flags still sit next to its alters and pictures of Francis are in the narthex.
Now some traditional Catholics believe Rome has fallen into heresy and is a new and different religion. And, they have deluded themselves into thinking that the SSPX was or is, a separate religious entity - perhaps keeping true to the faith. They have created, or bought, into some sort of "founding myth" that the Archbishop bravely saw the errors of Vatican II and went out and started (or maintained) his own religion to preserve true Christianity. They believe that Bishop Fellay became corrupt and is trying to "rejoin" Rome and destroy what the Archbishop created.
Even Roman authorities have made a similar mistake. Even minor Novos Ordo bishops often make the mistake in assuming that because SSPX isn't neatly within the Roman power structure it must be in schism.
The SSPX has always been part of Rome; Bishop Fellay is only seeking some sort of regularization.
This gentleman proves my point, the only way an SSPXer would think this way is "Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX".
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
SSPX would have about as much influence on Rome as fart in a hurricane. In fact, SSPX has more leverage in the negotiation process than it will have once it is "inside." But transforming Rome isn't even on the table in these negotiations--it's all about where the nigger entrances are going to be for SSPXers and how many nigger water fountains they can have.
this is not a good attitude.
generations are changing, the new blood might be attracted
to older ways.
nobody has addressed the fact that the SSPX is supposedly
not sede vacante. maybe this deal can be improved, or embellished
with stronger details, stronger presence mandated within the church.
however, if no deal can ever be made, then someone's going
to have to announce their own pope, or they're not catholic
anymore.
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From my earliest days as a convert to the Catholic Faith (long before Vatican II), I was taught to keep clear of bad company, and also to avoid the occasions of sin. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the present occupants of the seats of power in the Vatican would undeniably be bad company, and I have little doubt that their attitude to Tradition, and the lack of good example in their daily lives, could surreptitiously weaken my Faith and lead me into occasions of sin.
I have no wish to go along that path, and I cannot believe that the Director General of the SSPX would want to take it either.
I support all four of the intentions behind Bishop Fellay's 2016/17 Rosary Crusade, and I trust that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will protect us during these interminable discussions.
My vision is kind of fuzzy today -- and, no it is not the heat -- one of our neighbors had contractors spray their home with one of those new types of stucco yesterday. Anyway, the neighborhood has been smelling of paint funes for two days now.
So, when I first read this post, and did a double take.
I saw:
"I cannot believe that the Funeral Director of the SSPX would want to take it either."
That description fits Fellay to a tee, for the SSPX is being buried indeed.
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+Fellay's speech in New Zealand, broken into 6 parts:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZAyK-nfVCIdn1gLsCXGIkg
I watched it all last night, some revealing info.
IMO.
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Snowball says:
Refusing this offer would be grounds for irrevocable excommunication.
"What in the heck are you talking about?" comment #1.
Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside of her. The other route is schism.
"What in the heck are you talking about?" comment #2.
however, if no deal can ever be made, then someone's going
to have to announce their own pope, or they're not catholic
anymore.
"What in the heck are you talking about?" comment #3.
The SSPX + Rome = A "snowball's" chance in hell of staying Catholic.
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The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now? Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX.
The big question for supporters of the deal: Why do you want a deal NOW that Bergolio is the "pope"?
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The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now? Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX.
The big question for supporters of the deal: Why do you want a deal NOW that Bergolio is the "pope"?
It is not so much WANTING a deal; it is more about having a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially. Also, this official structure in the church would ease the minds of many people that think the SSPX is schismatic (which it is not) or celebrates invalid confessions (which it does not). One cannot ignore Rome completely and claim to be Catholic. The history of the church is filled with great Popes, saints, and terrible popes who have destroyed the faith. Nonetheless, the Rome is Rome, the Rome of St. Pius and John XII, St. Pius V and Stephen VI, Alexander VI and Francis. Pope Francis has little to do with the equation. It has more to do with getting the terms that the superiors deem necessary and sufficient for the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood" nothing more, nothing less.
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The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now? Only one reason, they have been slow boiled over time. For the young, they never were SSPX.
The big question for supporters of the deal: Why do you want a deal NOW that Bergolio is the "pope"?
It is not so much WANTING a deal; it is more about having a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially. Also, this official structure in the church would ease the minds of many people that think the SSPX is schismatic (which it is not) or celebrates invalid confessions (which it does not). One cannot ignore Rome completely and claim to be Catholic. The history of the church is filled with great Popes, saints, and terrible popes who have destroyed the faith. Nonetheless, the Rome is Rome, the Rome of St. Pius and John XII, St. Pius V and Stephen VI, Alexander VI and Francis. Pope Francis has little to do with the equation. It has more to do with getting the terms that the superiors deem necessary and sufficient for the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood" nothing more, nothing less.
Interesting that you made the mistake of writing the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood".
Prior to the conciliar popes, I do not know of any popes in the history of the Church, who destroyed the faith. Curious too that you should say destroyed the faith.
Why would you want "a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially" from a pope and hierarchy that destroyed the faith? It is like a faithful wife and mother of 10 children asking her husband who fooled around all through their wedded life and divorced her and left her to raise the children, to write a letter stating that she was a good and faithful wife.
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Thank you for your response RogerThat. I thought this subject would be better treated if it had its own thread, so I made a new thread entitled "Why a Deal Now with Pope Francis?". Please continue there.
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Rome will never be transformed without tradition inside
of her. The other route is schism.
SSPX would have about as much influence on Rome as fart in a hurricane. In fact, SSPX has more leverage in the negotiation process than it will have once it is "inside." But transforming Rome isn't even on the table in these negotiations--it's all about where the nigger entrances are going to be for SSPXers and how many nigger water fountains they can have.
This. We have to define what we mean by "transformation". I think we all agree that transformation/conversion of Rome must include:
- nullifying Vatican II (and subsequent rejection of false ecuмenism, teaching on religious liberty etc.)
- abolishing the New Mass
- bringing back TLM worldwide
- Rome loudly preaching the necessity of Social Reign of Jesus Christ
- Rome loudly preaching EENS
Can SSPX have at least a glimmer of realistic hope for bringing about these goals from within the Conciliar Church? Obviously, no. All they can do is to make the Latin Mass a bit more popular. The naivity of "SSPX changing Conciliar Rome from within" approach is shocking to me.
Personally I believe that it is almost impossible to restore Catholicism in Rome with ordinary means, it will probably happen after the chastisement from the Third Secret of Fatima/Three Days of Darkness (I hope I'm wrong though).
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The naivity of "SSPX changing Conciliar Rome from within" approach is shocking to me.
In some cases, it's naivity. In others, it's false hope. In most, it's the compromising urge of "not wanting to be different" which they cowardly disguise as pridefully wanting to "make the church great again", as if human beings can combat the wiles of the devil and his henchmen, who occupy rome. Lest we forget, St Paul told us: "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places." (Eph 6:12)
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The final count in the 7-Day poll is 80% against a Francis Deal and 20% for it... with some of the latter conceding they voted for it, just to put an end to Bp. Fellay's Kabuki theater misery.
(http://michellemalkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kabuki.jpg)
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Best thread ever. I especially enjoyed the invocation to the false Saint of Opus Judei on how we should all be swindled.