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Author Topic: Sharon Jane Ballatine  (Read 53648 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Sharon Jane Ballatine
« Reply #210 on: September 19, 2013, 08:39:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Sufficienct for a Pope to be a manifest heretic and then to attempt to make use of the thoughts of St. Bellarmine et al.

    Also my claim is not proved by anyone other than a Pope making the statement.  As far as I know not one has since St. Bellarmine et al discussed the issue.

    So ... good luck finding a Pope (btw I don't mean any of the 12 or 13 sede 'Popes').  

    What you need to find is the reference that I lost that backed up my affirmation.

    With regards to 'resist' a Pope in such a situation - I don't know. What I do know is that the Pope's since V2 haven't made such statements and therefore it is 'simply', since the Pope is Pope, a matter of relying upon the principle of Obedience found in the Summa.

    God Bless!


    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #211 on: September 19, 2013, 08:49:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: parentsfortruth
    .

    They can have it, I'm sticking with what I know. Fr. Bolduc taught us well.


    What did he teach you about Catholic Obedience?

    God Bless!


     :smile:

    I'm glad you asked!


    "We've had stupid popes in the past, and I'm sure we'll probably have some in the future. We have had terrible popes in the past that have made horrible mistakes. But we don't follow their mistakes!"

    Take a listen to the sermon where he spells it out very neatly a week before his death.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/rZLc7OTdjuk?feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]


    Sorry, I don't have access to YT.

    Secondly, we don't follow their mistakes does not mean that they aren't Pope, not does it mean that they can't issue lawful commands.  

    What he is stating appears to be in line with this:

    Quote

    On the contrary, It is written (Acts 5:29): "We ought to obey God rather than men." Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm



    So superiors need to be obeyed when they command something with the scope of their authority (sin obviously is not).  

    In the case that the Pope does issue such a command for the regularization of the SSPX - one that meets the criteria for obedience - then there is an obligation to obey.

    This thesis put forth by Hollingsworth, Fr. Rua and Bishop Williamson contradicts the above principle.

    Abandoning the reasoning of St. Thomas is not a good idea.

    Can we trust Pope Francis - probably not as the Franciscans have found out. However, it is not a question of trust in the person in the position of authority. If the command is legitimate (meets the criteria) then the person commanded needs to place their trust in God (who knows the future) and obey.

    Please note the key element: The command has to meet the criteria that it is not sinful or proximately sinful.  

    God bless!!!



    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #212 on: September 19, 2013, 08:52:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Quote

    You'll note that the letter you cited was also what I cited, the AAS of Paul the sick. Now, he's reiterating a position that was ALREADY HELD by the Church, and stated, once again, that the CHURCH had NO AUTHORITY, and NEITHER DOES HE, to make women priests. So that's a tautology, really.


    The letter I cited was BJP2 not Paul VI.

    What I read was the Paul VI wrote a letter to the Anglicans, then had the congregation issue a docuмent.

    This wasn't good enough for the extreme mods and it fell upon BJP2 to make a formal binding statement.  

    This is a clear difference in the levels of authority. As noted your argument could be used in criticizing the declaration of the dogmas of the Assumption and Immaculate conception.  Both of these were generally held and could be considered binding under Universal and Ordinary. The Pope saw that it was necessary to make it formally binding.

    Perhaps I'm missing something ...

    God Bless!



    This wasn't a letter to the anglicans. Here's the direct link.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS%2068%20%5B1976%5D%20-%20ocr.pdf

    Have fun translating it from Latin. It wasn't to the Anglicans, though. It was regarding evangelization. But he mentioned the women priests thing already, saying that the Church didn't have authority to allow women to be priests. Obviously, by Paul the sick saying this, he's saying that neither his predecessors, nor his successors have the authority to say anything differently than what has always been believed. So really it wasn't entirely necessary for him to say it since it simply, the Church COULD NOT allow it... neither BEFORE him, NOR after him.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #213 on: September 19, 2013, 08:53:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan

    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  


    Yes it was  - I guess the label got lost.

    The difference is that there is no one who can judge a Pope, you have no recourse.

    In the event of a priest there is a recourse - the superior.

    Before dealing with such a different case, do you agree with the principle stated as applied to a Pope?

    God Bless!!!!

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #214 on: September 19, 2013, 08:59:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: parentsfortruth
    .

    They can have it, I'm sticking with what I know. Fr. Bolduc taught us well.


    What did he teach you about Catholic Obedience?

    God Bless!


     :smile:

    I'm glad you asked!


    "We've had stupid popes in the past, and I'm sure we'll probably have some in the future. We have had terrible popes in the past that have made horrible mistakes. But we don't follow their mistakes!"

    Take a listen to the sermon where he spells it out very neatly a week before his death.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/rZLc7OTdjuk?feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]


    Sorry, I don't have access to YT.

    Secondly, we don't follow their mistakes does not mean that they aren't Pope, not does it mean that they can't issue lawful commands.  

    What he is stating appears to be in line with this:

    Quote

    On the contrary, It is written (Acts 5:29): "We ought to obey God rather than men." Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm



    So superiors need to be obeyed when they command something with the scope of their authority (sin obviously is not).  

    In the case that the Pope does issue such a command for the regularization of the SSPX - one that meets the criteria for obedience - then there is an obligation to obey.

    This thesis put forth by Hollingsworth, Fr. Rua and Bishop Williamson contradicts the above principle.

    Abandoning the reasoning of St. Thomas is not a good idea.

    Can we trust Pope Francis - probably not as the Franciscans have found out. However, it is not a question of trust in the person in the position of authority. If the command is legitimate (meets the criteria) then the person commanded needs to place their trust in God (who knows the future) and obey.

    Please note the key element: The command has to meet the criteria that it is not sinful or proximately sinful.  

    God bless!!!



    The Vatican, giving them an option to a "personal prelature," was a "take it or leave it." That doesn't sound like a command to me. That sounds like, "Well this is what we're offering, and we reject your offer, so you're still not excommunicated, but you're not regularized." The Vatican rejected the offer that the SSPX put to Rome. So it wasn't a matter of obedience here. It was a matter of the Vatican rejecting what conditions the SSPX would go along with.

    That doesn't sound absolute to me. Why would the SSPX want to be in COMMUNION with a bunch of people who reject very important elements of the Faith? Why would one want to share a space with the cafeteria variety of Catholics out there?

    There are massive sins of omission going on here, that are leading to HUGE scandals. Why would an organization trying to maintain their faith, want to be lumped in with the "bad apples?"

    I say what Father Bolduc taught us, which was STAY CATHOLIC and wait until Rome returns to the Faith! He had a good teacher in Archbishop Lefevbre.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline ultrarigorist

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    « Reply #215 on: September 19, 2013, 10:10:15 PM »
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  • "BJP2"? I assume the "B" is for "blessed"?
    Folks, this tradical is a papolater. Why are you wasting your time?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #216 on: September 19, 2013, 10:23:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan

    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  


    Yes it was  - I guess the label got lost.

    The difference is that there is no one who can judge a Pope, you have no recourse.

    In the event of a priest there is a recourse - the superior.

    Before dealing with such a different case, do you agree with the principle stated as applied to a Pope?

    God Bless!!!!


    A future pope can judge a previous pope.

    But you are trying to divert the issue again.  You seem to have plenty of time to respond to everyone, yet you still haven't provided a single historical example of this 'unambiguous heresy' that you've been referring to.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #217 on: September 19, 2013, 10:27:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: ultrarigorist
    "BJP2"? I assume the "B" is for "blessed"?
    Folks, this tradical is a papolater. Why are you wasting your time?


    Annnd I'm sure that if Paul the Sick was called "blessed," he'd recognize that too, even though there is an absolute TON of evidence to prove that he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.

    http://chiesaviva.com/paoloVI%20beatoin.pdf

    But, that's just how lopsided their understanding is.

    Oh, and "blessed" jpii, tons of evidence as to WHY he should NOT be beatified, much less canonized.

    http://chiesaviva.com/430%20mensile%20ing.pdf
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #218 on: September 20, 2013, 06:13:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan

    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  


    Yes it was  - I guess the label got lost.

    The difference is that there is no one who can judge a Pope, you have no recourse.

    In the event of a priest there is a recourse - the superior.

    Before dealing with such a different case, do you agree with the principle stated as applied to a Pope?

    God Bless!!!!


    A future pope can judge a previous pope.

    But you are trying to divert the issue again.  You seem to have plenty of time to respond to everyone, yet you still haven't provided a single historical example of this 'unambiguous heresy' that you've been referring to.  


    For clarity: There is no one who can judge a Pope during his reign.

    Do you agree with the principle as applied to a Pope?

    Regarding providing an example: I believe that be irrelevant.  As noted when I have a chance to look and if I come across such a manifestly heretical statement - I shall - but I do not work on your time table.

    God Bless!!!

    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #219 on: September 20, 2013, 06:18:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: ultrarigorist
    "BJP2"? I assume the "B" is for "blessed"?
    Folks, this tradical is a papolater. Why are you wasting your time?


    Here is a good question.

    If the Church has named Pope John Paul II as a Blessed - then why not use it?

    Of course if you believe that the Church has defected and therefore Christ was not God - well then ... I guess your perspective makes sense.

    Of course, using Blessed with Pope John Paul II offensive to some, but in reality it is what it is.

    The real test will be when they attempt to canonize him - then life will get interesting if God allows this to occur.  - Lots of ramifications will flow from such an action (many of which I am confident will be irrational).

    God Bless and guide you ultrarigorist!!!!

    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #220 on: September 20, 2013, 06:23:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: ultrarigorist
    "BJP2"? I assume the "B" is for "blessed"?
    Folks, this tradical is a papolater. Why are you wasting your time?


    Annnd I'm sure that if Paul the Sick was called "blessed," he'd recognize that too, even though there is an absolute TON of evidence to prove that he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.

    http://chiesaviva.com/paoloVI%20beatoin.pdf

    But, that's just how lopsided their understanding is.

    Oh, and "blessed" jpii, tons of evidence as to WHY he should NOT be beatified, much less canonized.

    http://chiesaviva.com/430%20mensile%20ing.pdf


    Yep and still if you believe that the Church in union with Pope Francis is the Church of Christ - you need to pick you theological battles very carefully.

    I wonder if the sspx lists Pope John Paul II as Blessed ...

    pause:

    Nope nothing pops up on a simple google search.

    God Bless!!!


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #221 on: September 20, 2013, 06:41:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan

    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  


    Yes it was  - I guess the label got lost.

    The difference is that there is no one who can judge a Pope, you have no recourse.

    In the event of a priest there is a recourse - the superior.

    Before dealing with such a different case, do you agree with the principle stated as applied to a Pope?

    God Bless!!!!


    A future pope can judge a previous pope.

    But you are trying to divert the issue again.  You seem to have plenty of time to respond to everyone, yet you still haven't provided a single historical example of this 'unambiguous heresy' that you've been referring to.  


    For clarity: There is no one who can judge a Pope during his reign.

    Do you agree with the principle as applied to a Pope?

    Regarding providing an example: I believe that be irrelevant.  As noted when I have a chance to look and if I come across such a manifestly heretical statement - I shall - but I do not work on your time table.

    God Bless!!!


    And *I* deem it to be irrelevant whether or not the pope can be judged during his reign, as lay Catholics have always resisted heretics, whether they have been judged or not, and they are given this duty by the Divine Law-- i.e., it is a responsibility that they have proceeding from God.  

    Heresy is heresy, whether it comes from your neighbor, your priest, a bishop or a pope.  We do not avoid some heretics and not avoid others.  We don't not refuse communion with heretics because they wear a cassock, nor do we wait for a judicial ruling on whether or not someone is a heretic when it is plainly in front of our face-- especially when the heresy is coming precisely from the institution that is supposed to judge heresy (by this I mean the conciliar Church, which has usurped the physical institutions of the Catholic Church)!  Using your logic, if you neighbor was the chief of police and you walked in on him molesting a child family member, you would continue to invite him over and let your kids have sleep-overs at his house because no one had judged him yet.  Preposterous.

    The reason it is relevant and expedient for you to justify your position that a heresy must be an 'unambiguous declaration' is history shows examples of Catholics resisting their 'superiors' because of their heresy, and not once has the heresy involved the formula 'I, N, deny X dogma.'  I wonder if you know what heresy is, if you think it is constrained to that.  No heretic thinks he's a heretic, no heretic tries to separate himself from the body.  He is separated nevertheless, but he does not make it a goal of his to achieve separation.  The reason that you will not provide ANY examples is that there ARE none.  Except maybe with Francis.  He's really out there.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #222 on: September 20, 2013, 09:42:36 PM »
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  • tradical,
    Quote
    I suspected someone would miss construe the word 'command'.  For example, a Pope cannot issue a command to his successor to do such-and-such an action.  Where did I say anything about binding belief etc?


    When a Pope issues a command that certain things are to be believed or to be done, his successors are bound to submit to the command just as are all.
    We suspected that you would begin your semantics antics soon, and we are not disappointed.

    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #223 on: September 21, 2013, 08:21:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    tradical,
    Quote
    I suspected someone would miss construe the word 'command'.  For example, a Pope cannot issue a command to his successor to do such-and-such an action.  Where did I say anything about binding belief etc?


    When a Pope issues a command that certain things are to be believed or to be done, his successors are bound to submit to the command just as are all.
    We suspected that you would begin your semantics antics soon, and we are not disappointed.


    Well where to go with this?

    First, to be specific, the Church proposes for belief.

    Second, note carefully what I wrote: "Pope cannot issue a command to his successor to do such-and-such an action"

    So to make it clear: If the Pope Benedict XVI were to have said: "I command my successor to regularize the SSPX without compromise" his successor in the Papacy is in no way obligated to do so because it is not an infallible statement on faith and morals.

    I am concerned that, if the adherents on Cathinfo and Ignis Ardens are a representative sample, the resistance is simply scandalized to such a degree by the actions of the hierarchy that they no longer believe in the indefectibility of the Church.  

    As a consequence they don't believe that the Pope can issue a legititmate command for the SSPX to accept a no-compromise regularization. The foundation for this belief appears to be (based on +W and Fr. Rua et al) a mistaken belief that the Church under the leadership of Pope Francis, (labelled the conciliar Church) cannot be the Church of Christ.  

    Furthermore they are at a loss to explain how the Church of Christ can be visible without a visible hierarchy founded upon the successor of St. Peter as taught by the First Vatican Council.

    Up until now, I've often assumed that the 'resistance' were just misguided, over reacting, ready to abandon Catholic principles  and believe in any conspiracy theory uttered by their oracles.

    Now I am faced with the another less complicated possibility: that they are simply schismatics.

    God Bless and Enlighten the SSPX and the Resistance!

    The SSPX, because the line between schism and true obedience is a razor's edge.

    The Resistance, because they can't tell the difference between the authority vested in a position, and the person occupying the position.

    Quote

    The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

    The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

    The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she may-be known by all.

    That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.





    Offline tradical

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    « Reply #224 on: September 21, 2013, 08:32:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Mithrandylan

    I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

    You claimed that nothing short of an unambiguous declaration of heresy is sufficient to resist the pope.  That is how I understood your statement, I have told you that I understood it this way, and you have not corrected my understanding, so we're settled that I understand you correctly.

    Now you say that the only way to prove your statement is to provide an 'unambiguous heretical declaration' from a pope.  And, I would gather that you argue there are no such statements.  But I'm not asking for a statement from a pope.  Any old statement will do.  It doesn't have to be from a pope, as Catholics are obliged obedience to more than simply the pope.  They are obliged obedience to any clergy with jurisdiction over them.  


    Yes it was  - I guess the label got lost.

    The difference is that there is no one who can judge a Pope, you have no recourse.

    In the event of a priest there is a recourse - the superior.

    Before dealing with such a different case, do you agree with the principle stated as applied to a Pope?

    God Bless!!!!


    A future pope can judge a previous pope.

    But you are trying to divert the issue again.  You seem to have plenty of time to respond to everyone, yet you still haven't provided a single historical example of this 'unambiguous heresy' that you've been referring to.  


    For clarity: There is no one who can judge a Pope during his reign.

    Do you agree with the principle as applied to a Pope?

    Regarding providing an example: I believe that be irrelevant.  As noted when I have a chance to look and if I come across such a manifestly heretical statement - I shall - but I do not work on your time table.

    God Bless!!!


    And *I* deem it to be irrelevant whether or not the pope can be judged during his reign, as lay Catholics have always resisted heretics, whether they have been judged or not, and they are given this duty by the Divine Law-- i.e., it is a responsibility that they have proceeding from God.  

    Heresy is heresy, whether it comes from your neighbor, your priest, a bishop or a pope.  We do not avoid some heretics and not avoid others.  We don't not refuse communion with heretics because they wear a cassock, nor do we wait for a judicial ruling on whether or not someone is a heretic when it is plainly in front of our face-- especially when the heresy is coming precisely from the institution that is supposed to judge heresy (by this I mean the conciliar Church, which has usurped the physical institutions of the Catholic Church)!  Using your logic, if you neighbor was the chief of police and you walked in on him molesting a child family member, you would continue to invite him over and let your kids have sleep-overs at his house because no one had judged him yet.  Preposterous.

    The reason it is relevant and expedient for you to justify your position that a heresy must be an 'unambiguous declaration' is history shows examples of Catholics resisting their 'superiors' because of their heresy, and not once has the heresy involved the formula 'I, N, deny X dogma.'  I wonder if you know what heresy is, if you think it is constrained to that.  No heretic thinks he's a heretic, no heretic tries to separate himself from the body.  He is separated nevertheless, but he does not make it a goal of his to achieve separation.  The reason that you will not provide ANY examples is that there ARE none.  Except maybe with Francis.  He's really out there.



    Well if you think that "Heresy is heresy" it would be good if you understood what constitutes Heresy and results in a separation from the Church and what does not.

    Heresy Plain and Not So Simple 1

    Outside the Church

    The principle is that the Pope remains the Pope because he is not a manifest heretic ( sede and manifest heretics ) and, as a Catholic Principle, if he issues a legitimate command, those within his scope of authority have an obligation to submit. Refusal to do so, if it includes a "denial of their Divine right to command" is schism.

    With regards to "Catholics resisting their 'superiors' because of their heresy", please provide some examples of Popes in this case and the method behind the 'resistance'.

    If the resistance wants to abandon Catholic principles, doctrine and dogma - that is their decision.

    However, it is important that those of us with sufficient knowledge expose their errors. In this manner those not prejudiced against the truth will be able to make an informed decision.