Quote from: Machabees

Quote from: obscurus

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: Machabees

Quote from: Histrionics

Bp. Williamson isn't a successor to the Apostles; the argumentation is flawed from the start. Unless you're asserting that he has jurisdiction?

What a strange statement.

Of course he is a successor to the Apostles.  He is a SSPX Catholic Bishop without ordinary jurisdiction.

Only bishops with ordinary jurisdiction can be considered successors of the apostles, though.  The Episcopi Vagantes (i.e., our traditional bishops) have no mission, no jurisdiction, and are not successors of the apostles.

This is correct. We often forget two principles: Power of Orders and the Power of Jurisdiction. SSPX bishops obviously have valid orders but they do not possess any jurisdiction but operate on the notion of supplied jurisdiction. They do not have a "mission" from the Church in the proper theological sense but due to the Crisis and for the good of souls use their power of orders to lead souls to Heaven.

???

There is a Principle -Like to Like.  If the 4-Bishops, under Supplied Jurisdiction, can Consecrate other bishops, ordain priests, confer all 7-Sacraments of the Church, and offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  That is Like to Like to the Apostles.  They are Successors of the Apostles.  Archbishop Lefebvre, who is a descendant of the Apostles, "begot" the 4-Bishops.  Jurisdiction is another matter of where the Bishops would head those functions.

As far as Jurisdiction, the Church has been supplying this the past 25-years as they have been Bishops; and has given to them Authority to function.

If a father of a family is -Like to Like- to Adam, he has his "Successorship" from Adam.  Jurisdiction is another matter of where he heads those functions of his family.

It is getting late here so I will have to wait till tomorrow to find a clearer explanation.

Obscurus,

I should point out that my ??? to you is only on your first sentence.  Responding to say: "This is correct." for acknowledging that the 4-Bishops are not of secession of the Apostles; and my comment followed.

The rest of what you wrote is well said.

Quote from: Machabees

There is a Principle -Like to Like.  If the 4-Bishops, under Supplied Jurisdiction, can Consecrate other bishops, ordain priests, confer all 7-Sacraments of the Church, and offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  That is Like to Like to the Apostles.  They are Successors of the Apostles.  Archbishop Lefebvre, who is a descendant of the Apostles, "begot" the 4-Bishops.  Jurisdiction is another matter of where the Bishops would head those functions.

As far as Jurisdiction, the Church has been supplying this the past 25-years as they have been Bishops; and has given to them Authority to function.

If a father of a family is -Like to Like- to Adam, he has his "Successorship" from Adam.  Jurisdiction is another matter of where he heads those functions of his family.

The issue has always been jurisdiction.  You are only father of your children--not everyone elses.  You only have authority in your family.  The world is NOT +Williamson's jurisdiction.  Who does he govern?  Where does he govern?  Does he only govern those who submit?  What if the Pope doesn't agree?  What if the local bishop doesn't agree?  Who does +Williamson answer to?

These are valid questions that seem to have no answer.  Even +Williamson himself  doesn't know.  Listen to his sermon from Vienna today.  He even goes as far to say that Fr. Pfeiffer has more leadership than him.  I never would have believed it but is that a clue that a consecration will take place soon?

You show you are "disconnected" from understanding again.  

You fly thither from one position to another.  What "world" pray tell do you believe in?  

EC: It is doctrinal fidelity that will guarantee our one and only Faith which is the basis of whatever will survive of Catholicism in the Church, or in the SSPX, or in the “Resistance.”

Yes.

ED: Meanwhile in the early 21st century there seems to me to be just not enough Catholic straw left to make a Catholic brick like the SSPX of the late 20th century.

O Prelate! where is thy faith? God can make Saints out of rocks! Believe!

Besides, God may not have another SSPX in mind this time. He would not have broken the first one unless there was something better to come. Believe, Good Bishop! Believe and be ready to do all that He requires of you!

The sermon Bishop Williamson gave yesterday has within it the answer to every question asked of late. It had within it proportionality to my own heart.

All that is attributed to Bishop Williamson hereafter is a paraphrase of what he preached, and not a direct quote.

THE BISHOP: Between now and the time that God converts the pope, a number of us can do and should do what we can. The shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered. Until the shepherd is restored the sheep will continue to be scattered. This does not mean the sheep can do nothing, and even less that they should do nothing. Every one of us must do what we can according to our station in life. The situation is much graver today than it was 40 or 50 years ago. We can do what we must do, we must do what we can do with what remains.

COMMENT: This accords with the spirit of the "SSPX Resistance Declaration," which is the spirit of the preservation, restoration, and rebuilding of the Catholic Church. That is the spirit +ABL had. That is the spirit all Catholics must have. Thus the "SSPX Resistance," by way of its Declaration, demonstrates that it has a Catholic spirit, and that these churchmen are worthy of our support.

THE BISHOP: +ABL saved the priesthood and made it possible for it to continue in a world and Church gone crazy. +ABL was a great bishop, doing his work as bishop, to look after doctrine, to look after the Sacraments, and to look after, as far as he could, the government of the Church. We are Catholics firstly by our faith, secondly by the Sacraments, and thirdly by coming under the government of the Church.

COMMENT: This is important. +W made no distinction here between Bishop and Apostle, between sent and not sent, between authorized and not authorized, between jurisdiction and lack of jurisdiction. All of +ABL's actions, before and after 1988, were the actions of a Catholic prelate, and these actions included, in some degree, government. These actions were the actions of a builder of the Church. Specifically +ABL built up the SSPX, but generically and ultimately he built up the Church.

THE BISHOP: +ABL succeeded by holding to doctrine, by his fidelity to the true Mass and sacramental Rites; by his fidelity to the essential traditions, he continued to create the Church, he continued to build the Church.  In a manner of speaking, he spun out of his insides the Church. He had inside him a faith, an experience, and an understanding of the Church, an understanding of why all these seemingly changeable, seemingly unimportant or unessential details and practices of the Church - why they are necessary and even essential to maintain the life of the Church. He stayed faithful to them and he built, he rebuilt, and the Church continued to collapse around him.  

COMMENT: Any who would call himself faithful to God, faithful to the Catholic Church, and even faithful to the spirit and mission of +ABL, whether clerical or lay, must set his face in one direction and one direction only. He must stay faithful to the entire deposit of Tradition and he must build, and rebuild, though the Church continue to collapse around him. It is not enough to be faithful. One must also build, according to his state of life and capacity. Faith AND works. Ora ET labora.

As St. Pius X affirmed: The Catholic City has only to be set up and restored continually against the unremitting attacks of insane dreamers, rebels, and miscreants.

THE BISHOP: As the 80's wore on it became clear that something had to be done. Clear-sighted Catholics from quite early on in the history of the Society told the Archbishop that he would have to consecrate bishops if he would guarantee the survival of the Society. The Archbishop had people advising him, asking him, inviting him, pressing him, through the 80's, to consecrate.

COMMENT: People pressed him on every side because they apprehended the magnitude of the unprecedented danger to the Church, the Faith, and souls. Hindsight and history prove only that they were absolutely correct in their assessment.

And now the time has come for +W to be pressed on every side by the plaints and pleadings of the clergy and the faithful for new bishops to be made as soon as possible. These cries are based on the same correct apprehension of the magnitude of the danger and the same urgent need as existed in the 1980's - and arguably even worse danger and even more dire need.  

THE BISHOP: +ABL waited. He said he was going to wait until he received a sign. He did not steer by extraordinary apparitions. He steered by what was happening in reality in the Church.

COMMENT: Integrally important and I am so relieved that +W spoke about this in public. I am so relieved to hear that +ABL did not rely on private revelations or subjective signs. Because he relied on observable reality and the objective, intelligible Catholic Faith, it was possible for the corporate body of the Church, the remnant of Tradition, to come to the same conclusions with the same evidence. +ABL made determinations on the same evidence that all men had access to. This is the mark and guarantee of the authentic Catholicity underpinning +ABL's decision to make bishops. All was done in the light - the light of full disclosure, the light of reason, and the light of faith.

THE BISHOP: The two signs that finally decided him, besides his encroaching old age, were, first, the Assisi meetings, where the Pope placed himself on an equal footing with the representatives of more or less false religions, not the true religion of the true God. The Archbishop said it's an incredible blasphemy. It's against the First Commandment. He couldn't understand that there was not much more reaction amongst Catholics of Tradition than there was - to the horror of Assisi as he saw it. That was one sign of the crisis achieving unparalleled gravity, of it getting ever more grave. Of course we've had the repetition and the banalization of Assisi ever since.

The other sign was the answer of Rome to a docuмent which he put together of questions on the doctrine of religious liberty. Religious liberty, liberation from God, is the essence of the opposition to the true religion of God. The answer from Rome that came back was the indefensible false doctrine of VII. Of these two signs the answer to the questions was worse because, while Assisi was merely practice, the answer was theory or principle. The principle is more grave than the practice.

COMMENT: +ABL relied upon objective reality and not some smarmy subjective bubbling up of "feeeeeling." We must do the same.

Do objective signs exist that point to the necessity for immediate episcopal consecration? Absolutely, unequivocally - YES.

- more Assisi;

- popes praying in ѕуηαgσgυєs and mosques with increasing frequency;

- the filthy and heretical "encyclicals" of JPII and BXVI;

- Summorum Pontificuм, as abject public sin and heresy;

-  false "lifting" of excommunications of the four bishops, and excluding +ABl and +dCM;  

- destruction of Campos, Redemptorists, IBP, etc.

- sell-out and doctrinal compromise of the very SSPX of +ABL;

- SSPX cινιℓ ωαr, with casualties to the tune of hundreds of priests and three bishops;

- elevation of the fraud Bergoglio to the papal throne.

I'm sure there is a lot more than could be cited, but any of these, and especially all of them together are a more powerful, more devastating, more convincing, more certain sign than those which +ABL relied on when he made his decision.

What is different now is the exponential increase in the degree of danger and its proximity. We don't have a decade to pussyfoot around. We have to act now. If +ABL had the Divine sanction to do what he did in 1988, then we have it all the more, and we have it now.

THE BISHOP: The future is difficult. It is in God's hands. In the 1970's, +ABL had a real hope of finding another three or four or five bishops to constitute a little group of bishops which he said would really have thrown a monkey wrench in the works of VII. He traveled all over the world looking for them. He met bishops discreetly. He talked with them. He urged them to take a stand, to come out in public. They would not do it. Good bishops. Good cardinals. Good archbishops. All good as judged by the world, but good enough for this terrible crisis? That's another question.

In the 1970's +ABL was hoping, and he strove to put together this kernel of resistance which could really have blocked the unfolding dreadful reform, the destruction of the Church. He failed. He did not find those bishops. But his striving created the SSPX. If he had not striven to save the Church or to help the Church as he understood how it needed to be helped - to put together a group of bishops - had he not striven to do that, he may not have put together a seminary to put together priests.

In other words, +ABL saw one thing, and to achieve that aim he made great efforts, and Providence used his efforts to achieve something else.

COMMENT: It can also be said that what he could not find he simply made - a group of bishops and priests faithful to God. He waited only to make sure that it was necessary, using reality as his yardstick. God sanctioned his Catholic action, which was based solely on the use of reason enlightened by faith.

We are there again.

The time is now for +W to save the Church, to help the Church, as ABL did, by making what he cannot find - a groups of bishops to turn the tide, to rebuild the Church, and to fight error.

We need this group of bishops now - not tomorrow. To wait is a terrible mistake.

- Each continent needs at least one bishop

- Each continent needs as many seminaries as possible

- Priests, men and boys, and all the faithful need regular contact, not only with priests, but with prelates, and with those incredibly beautiful liturgies that follow prelates wherever they go.

- Prelates create civilization and the Catholic City as no other instrumentality on Earth.

- This time around, we need to think bigger.

- The idea of loose associations of Catholic entities is a good one, as long as each entity has its bishop. If each entity does not have its own bishop, then it is a very bad idea.

- God will fix the hierarchy problem. He will set it back in order in his own time. We cannot, and so for this we must wait. But surely we can do our best, each according to his state in life, to make certain there is a Catholic hierarchy in existence when God comes to put it back in order. We wait for God to put the Papacy in order, but we do not delay to perform the actions He gives us to perform.

In summary, Bishop Williamson himself laid out the practical plan for the continuation of the Church in his sermon, wittingly or not.

On a practical level I can agree upon much of what has been said. The urgency is certainly present, the continuing assaults of the revolution are produced almost daily, the apostasy is undeniable, a future of unending rule  by the Judaized prelates and their masters is looming before us.

Can Bishop Williamson be the man who is destined to overturn this? I have no doubt that this is a distinct possibility but how is this to happen?

We can see what to us is the obvious course, assume leadership of the resistance, consecrate Bishops, form a congregation, and so on.

These are the things which are being proposed and lobbied for to H.E. but he is reluctant to move ahead in this way. Why is that?
Perhaps he is not convinced that this what is the best way to proceed.

First an end must be established and then the method to achieve it may come into focus. We all know what the general directions that things should take to help repair the Church. But who is it that can see clearly the long war and the larger strategies which will be required to wage it?

Bishop Williamson speaks of the Archbishop waiting, waiting for a sign. He was waiting for something outside of himself to point him and sanction a particular course of action.

I believe that for Bishop Williamson as it was for ABL that he is not awaiting any of the aforementioned signs of the destruction and abomination, but rather that he awaits THE sign, that Divine word that is meant for him alone, and for which he will sacrifice all to fulfill.
My impression is that he desires to be God's hammer, an implement in God's hand, achieving God's end.

We are all men with all that being so implies and our ideas about the restoration, no matter how deeply our fervor flows, cannot hope to grasp the divine plan for restoration. We can only cast pebbles at the demonic battlements by comparison.

Only at Our Lord's command will the Praetorians appear to raze the walls of the Dark City and drive the enemy back to the pit of its origin.

The good Bishop has said that he will consecrate, he will ordain, and he will exercise his Apostolic duty. These are critical but practical matters.
Opening an entirely new front against the parasitical usurpers in the Church and in the world at large, is not . It could be the most important effort to restore Christ to the world in a thousand years.

If one wishes to achieve such a lofty and holy end, it must be done in a manner that will provides for its survival for the duration of the campaign of battle.  If you set yourself up so that you can be easily overcome and crushed
as it would be if H.E. were to establish what would amount to an alternative SSPX, then you repeat the mistakes of all of the others and will lose, as they have. You will become inconsequential in the larger war.

For myself, I do not judge Bishop Williamson in a harsh or overly critical way.
He has suffered much, and born his burdens with dignity.

It does not appear that he knows himself which way to go, he knows our concerns and our counsel, but there to be something more which can only come from inside of himself in communion with Our Lord. Plainly, I think that he is waiting for the Divine Counsel to direct and confirm him.

I may be far off the mark, but I have hope in Our Lord and His Mother that they will not abandon a devoted son of Mary and the Church to the wolves.
He may yet be the Bishop in the grand strategy of Heaven.

May God Bless the Bishop and my Catholic brethren.

Bishop Williamson speaks of the Archbishop waiting, waiting for a sign. He was waiting for something outside of himself to point him and sanction a particular course of action.

I believe that for Bishop Williamson as it was for ABL that he is not awaiting any of the aforementioned signs of the destruction and abomination, but rather that he awaits THE sign, that Divine word that is meant for him alone, and for which he will sacrifice all to fulfill.

My impression is that he desires to be God's hammer, an implement in God's hand, achieving God's end.

This was the message he communicated to me during a private conversation.  I have never said he awaited a message from a visionary but rather HEAVEN.  He made it clear to me he awaits orders from Heaven (he pointed upward with his hand  as he spoke).  This would be consistent with his sermon.  I also posted 2 weeks ago about St. Pius X awaiting an external sign (Holy Nellie) that he should proceed with his desired changes to allow children to receive communion.

Not at all disordered or radical.

Quote from: cantatedomino

Quote

ED: Meanwhile in the early 21st century there seems to me to be just not enough Catholic straw left to make a Catholic brick like the SSPX of the late 20th century.

O Prelate! where is thy faith? God can make Saints out of rocks! Believe!

Besides, God may not have another SSPX in mind this time. He would not have broken the first one unless there was something better to come. Believe, Good Bishop! Believe and be ready to do all that He requires of you!

You're pretty confused, cantatedomino.  Bishop Williamson is not a prelate.

Better retreat and regroup.  You're losing credibility like a sinking dinghy.

Credibility with whom?