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Author Topic: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette  (Read 89641 times)

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Offline Hermenegildus

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Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2025, 06:47:44 AM »
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  • As I mentioned, St. Francis de Sales wrote that Honorius was not an explicit heretic. Honorius' actions were not from the papal office to the whole Church.
    And not not every heretic loses office.

    If Honorius was truly pope (he was), and yet was:
    1. condemned by an ecuмenical council,
    2. anathematized by name as a heretic,
    3. condemned by a subsequent pope,

    …but did not lose the papacy,

    then the sedevacantist position is already destroyed.

    Because the Church herself gives you the principle:

    A pope can be condemned posthumously for heresy or negligence
    without having lost the papacy during his life.

    That is the exact teaching St. Francis de Sales defends.

    Therefore, the slogan “a heretic can’t be pope” is completely refuted by the Church’s own history and dogmatic councils.





    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #31 on: December 12, 2025, 06:56:24 AM »
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  • And not not every heretic loses office.

    If Honorius was truly pope (he was), and yet was:
    1. condemned by an ecuмenical council,
    2. anathematized by name as a heretic,
    3. condemned by a subsequent pope,

    …but did not lose the papacy,

    then the sedevacantist position is already destroyed.

    Because the Church herself gives you the principle:

    A pope can be condemned posthumously for heresy or negligence
    without having lost the papacy during his life.

    That is the exact teaching St. Francis de Sales defends.

    Therefore, the slogan “a heretic can’t be pope” is completely refuted by the Church’s own history and dogmatic councils.




    Affirm or deny:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.


    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #32 on: December 12, 2025, 10:03:42 AM »
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  • Affirm or deny:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
    Hi CatholicKnight, if this is an invitation extended to all I will participate, with regards to the proposition in quotes above my response is as follows: I Affirm.


    Now your turn: Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.
    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #33 on: December 12, 2025, 10:21:15 AM »
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  • Hi CatholicKnight, if this is an invitation extended to all I will participate, with regards to the proposition in quotes above my response is as follows: I Affirm.


    Now your turn: Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.

    I affirm that Pope Honorius remained pope until his death.

    I affirm that he was condemned as a heretic.

    I deny that he was truly guilty before God of the public sin of heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #34 on: December 12, 2025, 10:57:51 AM »
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  • Affirm or deny:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Your insistenced upon a binary Yes or No drives the answer toward a false dichtomy.

    I believe this to be true, though I object to your constant use of the world sin, as in public sin, since it can imply a judgment regarding the internal forum, which is not required.

    Other than that, I hold the proposition to be true, and Pope Pius XII taught this.

    Nevertheless, the Cajetan opinion and others have not been explicitly condemned, so one can hold them as a Catholic.

    In addition, does a manifest heretic sepeparated from the Church lose office?  And that too can be distunguished, where, for instance, the sedeprivationists hold that he loses office not simpliciter, but secundum quid, where he loses the ability to formally exercise the office (and Fr. Chazal would say the same with sedeimpoundism), but remains nevertheless in material possession of and with legal claim TO the office.

    I also don't believe, however, that the question is even relevant, since the I hold to the "Siri Theory", where none of them have been legitimate popes after the election.

    So the tactic of trying to force binary yes-no answers to questions that admit of various distinctions is an attempt to drive toward acceptance of your false dichotomy.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #35 on: December 12, 2025, 11:06:06 AM »
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  • In addition, does a manifest heretic sepeparated from the Church lose office?  And that too can be distunguished, where, for instance, the sedeprivationists hold that he loses office not simpliciter, but secundum quid, where he loses the ability to formally exercise the office (and Fr. Chazal would say the same with sedeimpoundism), but remains nevertheless in material possession of and with legal claim TO the office.

    This question is no longer merely in the realm of theological opinion. It has been practically settled and Canon Law forces Catholics to abide by 1917 Canon 188.4 in this matter.

    Theological opinions do not overrule the currrent discipline of the Church found in Canon Law.

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #36 on: December 12, 2025, 11:07:45 AM »
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  • I affirm that Pope Honorius remained pope until his death.

    I affirm that he was condemned as a heretic.

    I deny that he was truly guilty before God of the public sin of heresy.
    Honorius remained pope until his death and was condemned by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council; to deny his objective guilt of heresy is to mock the Council’s binding authority, relativize its dogmatic judgment, and contradict immutable Church teaching.

    The question was strictly affirm or deny, and introducing a third option by denying his guilt before God not only violates the poll’s structure but effectively claims that an Ecuмenical Council, which defines dogma infallibly, erred in its judgment, a logical and theological impossibility that undermines the Church’s authority.



    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #37 on: December 12, 2025, 11:14:58 AM »
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  • Honorius remained pope until his death and was condemned by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council; to deny his objective guilt of heresy is to mock the Council’s binding authority, relativize its dogmatic judgment, and contradict immutable Church teaching.

    The question was strictly affirm or deny, and introducing a third option by denying his guilt before God not only violates the poll’s structure but effectively claims that an Ecuмenical Council, which defines dogma infallibly, erred in its judgment, a logical and theological impossibility that undermines the Church’s authority.

    What is your point in bringing up a controversy like this? You do realize that historians and theologians don't even agree on the facts of the case. The records kept were not perfect.

    And you do realize that the action of the Third Ecuмenical Council was a disciplinary action, right? If they did not correctly understand the facts of the case, their judgement was not valid.

    Just because the disciplinary action dealt with the dogmatic subject matter of a "heresy," that does not mean that the disciplinary action was itself a dogmatic statement.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #38 on: December 12, 2025, 11:17:54 AM »
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  • Honorius remained pope until his death and was condemned by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council; to deny his objective guilt of heresy is to mock the Council’s binding authority, relativize its dogmatic judgment, and contradict immutable Church teaching.

    The question was strictly affirm or deny, and introducing a third option by denying his guilt before God not only violates the poll’s structure but effectively claims that an Ecuмenical Council, which defines dogma infallibly, erred in its judgment, a logical and theological impossibility that undermines the Church’s authority.

    So, affirm or deny, are you condemning St. Francis de Sales for saying Honorius was "perhaps" a heretic?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #39 on: December 12, 2025, 11:35:54 AM »
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  • Honorius remained pope until his death and was condemned by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council; to deny his objective guilt of heresy is to mock the Council’s binding authority, relativize its dogmatic judgment, and contradict immutable Church teaching.

    The question was strictly affirm or deny, and introducing a third option by denying his guilt before God not only violates the poll’s structure but effectively claims that an Ecuмenical Council, which defines dogma infallibly, erred in its judgment, a logical and theological impossibility that undermines the Church’s authority.

    The condemnation of a person as a heretic is not a divine judgment.  It is a human judgment.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #40 on: December 12, 2025, 11:40:56 AM »
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  • I believe this to be true, though I object to your constant use of the world sin, as in public sin, since it can imply a judgment regarding the internal forum, which is not required.

    You keep spewing this and yet when I ask you for evidence you go silent only to reappear over and over again.  I have demonstrated to you that a judgment in the external forum implies a judgment of sin in the internal forum.  Otherwise, the competent authority would have no basis to make the judgment in the external forum.  Canonical delicts are based on the underlying sins.  So please stop with acting as if you were the authority on this matter.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #41 on: December 12, 2025, 11:42:40 AM »
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  • I affirm that Pope Honorius remained pope until his death.

    I affirm that he was condemned as a heretic.

    I deny that he was truly guilty before God of the public sin of heresy.

    So ... your opinion means nothing, and it rests on some uncanny ability you must have to read the internal forum, which you admit in the last proposition with "truly guilty before God".  You know this how?  BEFORE GOD effectively entails a judgment of the internal forum.

    This is all a setup to justify your begged question that Bergoglio and Prevost were/are non-Popes but that Razinger was a pope, since Bergoglio "meant" his heresies and, like Padre Pio, you can read souls and declare that he was "truly guilty before God" for them, and using this same power can read Ratzinger's soul and declare that he did NOT mean his heresies, even when he and Bergs said that same objectively heretical things.

    If anything, it would be precisely the opposite.  Why?  Ratzinger was an extremely well-educated man, having obtained advanced degrees prior to Vatican II, when they meant something, whereas Bergoglio comes across as a moron, with seminary training worthy of a certificate you might find in a CrackerJack box ... where he attacked Trads for being Pelagians when he quite clearly meant something like Jansenists.  Ratzinger KNEW that what he was saying contradicted Tradition, whereas Bergs might struggle to pass a quiz based on Baltimore No. 1.  Ratzinger made some production about a "hermeneutic of continuity", but that was little more than a cynical attempt to lure Trads back in to the Conciliar Church, and his hermeneutic was in fact of the Hegelian variety.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #42 on: December 12, 2025, 11:44:58 AM »
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  • So ... your opinion means nothing, and it rests on some uncanny ability you must have to read the internal forum, which you admit in the last proposition with "truly guilty before God".  You know this how?  BEFORE GOD effectively entails a judgment of the internal forum.

    You keep spewing this and yet when I ask you for evidence you go silent only to reappear over and over again.  I have demonstrated to you that a judgment in the external forum implies a judgment of sin in the internal forum.  Otherwise, the competent authority would have no basis to make the judgment in the external forum.  Canonical delicts are based on the underlying sins.  So please stop with acting as if you were the authority on this matter.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #43 on: December 12, 2025, 11:45:19 AM »
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  • You keep spewing this and yet when I ask you for evidence you go silent only to reappear over and over again.  I have demonstrated to you that a judgment in the external forum implies a judgment of sin in the internal forum.  Otherwise, the competent authority would have no basis to make the judgment in the external forum.  Canonical delicts are based on the underlying sins.  So please stop with acting as if you were the authority on this matter. 

    Evidence is not required to realize that not even the Church judges the internal forum.  Simply Google up de internis Ecclesia non judicat ... a notion that's repeatedly taught everywhere by Popes, Doctors, theologians, etc.  Last recollection of something I read recently was in Apostolicae Curae by Pope Leo XIII, but there are countless examples, and it's a theological maxim that no one disputes.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism Proven Wrong by La Salette
    « Reply #44 on: December 12, 2025, 11:46:32 AM »
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  • You keep spewing this and yet when I ask you for evidence you go silent only to reappear over and over again.  I have demonstrated to you that a judgment in the external forum implies a judgment of sin in the internal forum.  Otherwise, the competent authority would have no basis to make the judgment in the external forum.  Canonical delicts are based on the underlying sins.  So please stop with acting as if you were the authority on this matter. 

    Just shut up you babbling moron and simply Google up how the Church does not judge the internal forum.

    It's absolute bullcrap that the Church has no basis to make a judgment in the external forum simply because the Church does not judge the internal.  Again, Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, simply the last of many that I recall.  St. Robert Bellarmine teaches also quite clearly that we judge a man a heretic, plain and simple, by his outward actions only, and to not pretend we can determine internal forum considerations like whether he's "truly guilty before God", as if we can read souls.  You don't know a darn thing about theology, clearly, in constantly claiming that the internal forum has any bearing on the judgment of manifest heresy.

    There is an external forum criterion regarding pertinacity, but pertinacity simply refers to persistnece, where it wasn't a slip of the tongue, a fleeting misjudgment, quickly correct once alerted to it, etc. ... but that you cling to the false opinion, as generally indicated by saying it over and over again, emphatically, in a manner where they would not accept correction on it.  Even in that case, however, the individual might in fact be absolutely convinced that his error is truth, that it can be reconciled with Church teaching somehow, and be persistent in the error in good faith before God, i.e. where he's not "truly guilty before God" for it.  But the Church cannot and does not presume to sort that out.

    Anyone who knows anything about theology understands this principle, but you keep bloviating about it simply because you have an agenda, which is to declare Bergoglio and Prevost non-popes outside the Church while somehow saving Ratzinger and Wojtyla for teaching the exact same things, and actually INVENTING the heresies that you claim causes Bergs and Prevost to lose office.  In fact, if we're judging internal forum, I could simply declare the OPPOSITE of your judgment, namely, that because Wojtyla and Ratzinger were well educated before Vatican II and because they invented these heresies, they are FAR MORE "guilty before God" than Bergoglio or Prevost, since they should know better and they innovated the heresies in the first place, whereas Bergoglio might have just been mindlessly regurgitating the errors of his predecessors because he mistakenly thought they were popes.  Of course, I don't know and can't prove that anymore than you can prove your version of events, but this is to illustrate that I don't know, and neither do you, that neither of us can judge the internal forum.  PERHAPS Wojtyla was sincere.  But PERHAPS he was an evil sinister crypto Jew and Communist agent who deliberately infiltrated the Catholic Church to destroy it.  There is some evidence to suggest this.  Meanwhile, Bergoglio is just a moron who regurgitates stuff he got elsewhere.  Who's more guilty?  But I don't now.  AND YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER.  You absolutely cannot judge popes based on some mystical judgment of yours that requires reading intenrnal forum.