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Offline AJNC

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« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2015, 01:56:25 AM »
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  • This comment was posted in a similar thread on another forum:

    Apparently, the secret chapter took place between 1 and 7 August. If the district superiors were not in their countries during those days, it is sure that the secret chapter took place.

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #61 on: August 21, 2015, 09:15:21 PM »
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  • If this is all true then they have truly adopted the way of the world today, the way of the Freemasons and the Jews...to do their business in secret.

    Nothing good comes from secrecy and things which are done in the dark. Be prepared for the platitudes about prudence, and justifications about the necessity of keeping things out of the public view.

    But then, one might want to be behind a locked door when collaborating with the enemies of our Religion and Salvation.



    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #62 on: August 22, 2015, 05:12:28 AM »
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  • Well, I can hear regular pew fillers remark the Society is not a democracy. And to be honest, it could exist without normal lay congregations. If the preferred model is Opus Dei, its priests and properties could pursue a very different path on the smells and bells sidelines of the reformed church, adopting an academic and archivist role for those earnestly seeking some connection between the past and the present. And if there is a wide gulf between the two the Society with its excellent record of smudge and fudge           could be that important bridge.

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #63 on: August 22, 2015, 08:36:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Wessex
    Well, I can hear regular pew fillers remark the Society is not a democracy. And to be honest, it could exist without normal lay congregations. If the preferred model is Opus Dei, its priests and properties could pursue a very different path on the smells and bells sidelines of the reformed church, adopting an academic and archivist role for those earnestly seeking some connection between the past and the present. And if there is a wide gulf between the two the Society with its excellent record of smudge and fudge           could be that important bridge.


    Ah yes, another bridge to nowhere......................or the bridge to Zion.

    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #64 on: August 22, 2015, 09:45:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: AJNC
    This comment was posted in a similar thread on another forum:

    Apparently, the secret chapter took place between 1 and 7 August. If the district superiors were not in their countries during those days, it is sure that the secret chapter took place.


    Fr. Couture, DS Canada, was in St-Cesaire and Montreal over the period in question. He was not in Europe at a secret chapter.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #65 on: August 22, 2015, 02:17:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: AJNC
    This comment was posted in a similar thread on another forum:

    Apparently, the secret chapter took place between 1 and 7 August. If the district superiors were not in their countries during those days, it is sure that the secret chapter took place.

    Fr. Couture, DS Canada, was in St-Cesaire and Montreal over the period in question. He was not in Europe at a secret chapter.



    Can you be sure that wasn't a disguised look-alike filling in for him?  

    There have been other incidents of disguised SSPX appearances in Canada in recent years.

    At a recent funeral for a deceased choral conductor, Cardinal Balony - I mean Mahony - attended, sitting quietly at the side of the sanctuary.  He stood up, walked across the front, peered into the open casket, then processed around (where the communion rail had been, now recently torn out) and back to his seat, without saying anything.  People around me were murmuring, "Who is that?" and "Isn't that Balony - I mean Mahony?"  "Why isn't he saying anything?"  "He looks like a ghost."

    He was, in objective fact, moving like a ghost.  But he always did look that way.

    Point is, it could have been an actor made up to look and move like him, and nobody would have known the difference, especially since he didn't say anything.

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline richard

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    « Reply #66 on: August 28, 2015, 09:53:03 AM »
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  • Was there a secret meeting or not,and if so has any one heard any thing about it?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    « Reply #67 on: August 28, 2015, 03:43:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Can you be sure that wasn't a disguised look-alike filling in for him?


    Can you be sure that all your furniture hasn't been replaced by exact replicas?


    Offline Ekim

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    « Reply #68 on: August 28, 2015, 05:56:44 PM »
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  • The Imposter Pope from the Bayside "Apparitions" is his Pontiff.

    Offline clarkaim

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    « Reply #69 on: August 28, 2015, 06:47:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    The bottom line is that the Modernists heretics are not interested in dogma or in dogmatizing anything. They are only interested in acceptance and obedience to their "enlightened" propositions. Their use of religious terms and concepts are only to give the appearance of religious authority to their doctrinal coercion.

    The employment of religious assent is merely a tool of expediency for them. The True Church when treating on the subject of assent is not speaking about submission to un-Catholic things and heretical ideas, because things such as these, cannot be a part of the Church's Magisterium.

    Bishop Fellay is  just trying to figure out a way to accept this profession without appearing to do so. Perhaps so that he can continue on with his visionary mission of saving the Church?


    This!  I think in more a subtle reality than realized.  Heck, they may just shut down the "church" having stripped it of it's lifeblood, the FAITHm They'll just loot the rest, after all, what would e the point?  The Jews thought the story was over the first time they killed Our Lord, only7 to be suprised 3 days later.  Jews are almost successful again, but the next time (resurrection of the Church), no more Mister Nice Guy!  And in the immortal words of Francis (from Stripes, not Assisi) "All I know is I finally get to kill somebody"

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    « Reply #70 on: April 10, 2016, 05:32:52 AM »
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  • In view of the new affirmation by Msgr. Pozzo on 4/9/16, that the "1989 Profession of faith" Faith" with its novel addendum (last paragraph which is not a dogma) "will be submitted for membership of the SSPX in the appropriate time" and to avoid so much repetition, I'm bringing back this old thread. I would repeat that the Roman Modernists (1989) "Profession of Faith" is a violation of the First Commandment. It demands "religious submission of will and intellect" to man on the authority of man.


    Quote from: Msgr. Pozzo 4/9/16

    What are the basic requirements to the SSPX, for their full communion with the Church of Rome?

    It is first necessary to reiterate that being Catholic requires adherence to the Profession of Faith, the bond of the sacraments and hierarchical communion with the Roman Pontiff, Head of the College of Bishops in communion with him. The Doctrinal Statement, which will be submitted for membership of the SSPX in the appropriate time, will contain these three essential and necessary points.


    Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora
    The non-dogmatic paragraph on the "Profession of Faith" said:
    Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.


    To be clear:  

    The Apostolic Exhortation “Amoris Laetitia” (4/9/16) is a "teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium" which "they do not intend to proclaim...by a definitive act" BUT the SSPX and all indult communities will  be expected to "adhere with religious submission of will and intellect" in order to be considered "Catholics" by the New church. Hope this helps to see the picture.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #71 on: April 10, 2016, 09:49:42 AM »
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  • Ladislaus and RJS are correct on this, while Marie and Drew are mistaken, here is Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis describe the nature of the assent due to the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs, "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth Me"

    Here it is in Lumen Gentium,"Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra" followed by a simple explanation of the rare circumstances in which temporarily withholding assent is justified, and the nature of the submission to the Magisterium that must be manifested during the time while the theologian expresses his doubts and questions through the appropriate channels,

    "Donum Veritatis also allows that even if "not habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments," "some Magisterial documents might not be free from all deficiencies," and withholding assent is allowed for a theologian "who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching." In such "even if the doctrine of the faith is not in question, the theologian will not present his own opinions or divergent hypotheses as though they were non-arguable conclusions," and is to "refrain from giving untimely public expression to them," and "avoid turning to the mass media," but with a humble and teachable spirit it is his duty "to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented," with "an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him." prayerfully trusting "that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail."

    https://en.wiki pedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum#Withholding_assent

    The pre-Vatican II theology manuals that clearly explain how the religious submission to the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium differs from the irrevocable assent of divine Catholic Faith to the infallible statements of the Pope or Church have been cited earlier.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Incredulous

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    « Reply #72 on: April 10, 2016, 04:27:59 PM »
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  • So, you're apply this to the xSPX and Francis, as if we are dealing with the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs ?
       :thinking:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline drew

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    « Reply #73 on: April 10, 2016, 05:05:11 PM »
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  • Nishant:

    This discussion in this thread concerns two points that must be properly understood to defend the Faith.  

    The first point is the 1989 Profession of Faith which is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed with the addenda of three propositions.  This first two are dogmas.  The third is not.  This Profession of Faith is the one and only non-negotiable requirement by the CDF to regularize the SSPX with Rome.  It was the one and only non-negotiable condition offered to Fr. Samuel Waters by the CDF for the charges of “schism” and “heresy” made by his local ordinary.  This Profession of Faith was regarded with contempt by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    The third addendum concerns the demand by solemn oath for the unqualified “submission of the mind and will,” or as phrased in Lumen Gentium (LG), which is the direct reference for the addendum, “submission of the soul,” to man as man.  This is a violation of the First Commandment.

    Quote from: Nishant
    Ladislaus and RJS are correct on this, while Marie and Drew are mistaken, here is Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis describe the nature of the assent due to the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiffs, "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth Me"


    No reference or citation for this novel teaching in LG was made at Vatican II to Pope Pius XII and Humani Generis (HG).  The CDF under Ratzinger in his two documents explaining the “religious submission of the mind and will” also makes no reference to HG.  The first to make the connection, as far as I know, was Archbishop Guido Pozzo in an interview with Jean-Marie Dumont on October 20, 2014 that was published in the French magazine, Famille Chrétienne.  So you are repeating the opinion of the front man at the CDF who has repeatedly said that the 1989 Profession of Faith is the one and only non-negotiable condition for regularizing the SSPX.  

    The reason that LG and the CDF did not reference HG as an authority for its teaching is because they are not talking about the same thing.  The examples provided by Pope Pius XII in HG are examples of the ‘ordinary and universal magisterium’ (such as, inerrancy of scripture, identity of the Church and the Mystical Body of Christ, the fixed meaning of the term, substance, that the world had a beginning, the existence of original sin, etc., etc., etc.) and not the ‘authentic ordinary magisterium’.  The ordinary and universal magisterium is always infallible and that is why Pius XII specifically references our Lord’s admonition, “He who heareth you, heareth Me,” which can only be said if there is no possibility of error.  It is true that Pius only said “ordinary” and not “ordinary and universal” but the context should have made that clear to you and to Pozzo.  

    Quote from: Nishant
    Here it is in Lumen Gentium,"Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra" followed by a simple explanation of the rare circumstances in which temporarily withholding assent is justified, and the nature of the submission to the Magisterium that must be manifested during the time while the theologian expresses his doubts and questions through the appropriate channels.


    The fact of the matter is that an oath is appended to and required from a Profession of Faith in which every article in the Profession is a dogma except the third proposition in question.  This proposition is proposed with no qualifications whatsoever.  The oath concerns what the words say and an oath disavows any mental reservation or qualification.

    Furthermore, we have the specific example by the CDF applying the 1989 Profession of Faith to Fr. Samuel Waters and the Mission regarding the formal charge of “heresy” and “schism” made by the local ordinary for “dissent from the authentic magisterium.”  No qualifications as specifically made to the CDF by Fr. Waters were admitted.  Although Ratzinger at the CDF said, “A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as rash or dangerous and therefore ‘tuto doceri non potest,’” (Ratzinger, Ad Tuendam Fidem), the CDF applied dissent from the ordinary authentic magisterium by Fr. Waters as if were heresy and not merely "erroneous."  I repeat: Fr. Waters was accused of heresy for "dissent from the authentic magisterium" and the reply from the CDF was the 1989 Profession of Faith. This constitutes prima facie evidence for the proper understanding of this question.

    Quote from: Nishant
    "Donum Veritatis also allows that even if "not habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments," "some Magisterial documents might not be free from all deficiencies," and withholding assent is allowed for a theologian "who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching." In such "even if the doctrine of the faith is not in question, the theologian will not present his own opinions or divergent hypotheses as though they were non-arguable conclusions," and is to "refrain from giving untimely public expression to them," and "avoid turning to the mass media," but with a humble and teachable spirit it is his duty "to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented," with "an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him." prayerfully trusting "that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail."

    https://en.wiki pedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum#Withholding_assent


    Donum Veritatis, on religious vocation of theologians, references LG and says that the “religious submission of will and intellect... cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith” and indicates the “indissoluble bond between the ‘sensus fidei’” and the “religious submission of the will and intellect.... to the (authentic) magisterium.” That is, the appeal is not to any inherent intelligibility to propositions by the ordinary authentic magisterium but to its authority alone in the sense that we believe the truths of our faith on the authority of God alone.  But God “can neither deceive or be deceived.”  The ordinary authentic magisterim can and has done both.

    Quote from: Ratzinger, CDF
    When the Magisterium, not intending to act "definitively", teaches a doctrine to aid a better understanding of Revelation and make explicit its contents, or to recall how some teaching is in conformity with the truths of faith, or finally to guard against ideas that are incompatible with these truths, the response called for is that of the religious submission of will and intellect. (23) This kind of response cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith..... Not without reason did the Second Vatican Council emphasize the indissoluble bond between the "sensus fidei" and the guidance of God's People by the (authentic) magisterium of the Pastors. These two realities cannot be separated. (Cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, n. 12.) (23) Cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, n. 25; Code of Canon Law, can. 752. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, CDF, Donum Veritatis, May 1990


    The permission of dissent that you cite is permitted to “theologians,” must be in the private forum alone, is merely theoretical permitting no practical descent, ultimately requires obedience in the external forum, presupposes our immemorial ecclesiastical traditions are merely disciplinary matters, presupposes no necessary relationship between our immemorial ecclesiastical traditions and the faith they make known, and in the final analysis requires submission in the internal forum without offering definitive dogmatic declarations to resolve any teaching held to be contrary to the faith.  This “dissent” is meaningless especially in light of Fr. Waters case before the CDF.  

    Quote from: Nishant
    The pre-Vatican II theology manuals that clearly explain how the religious submission to the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium differs from the irrevocable assent of divine Catholic Faith to the infallible statements of the Pope or Church have been cited earlier.


    The pre-Vatican II theologians, as you say, “explain how the religious submission to the ordinary authentic magisterium differs from the irrevocable assent of divine Catholic Faith.”  That is, they always say that the religious submission is necessarily a qualified submission.  The problem is the 1989 Profession of Faith does not.  It is not an oversight.

    There is a reason why the 1989 Profession of Faith is the one and only non-negotiable condition for recognition of the SSPX. Do you think Archbishop Lefebvre was ignorant of the implications when he said:

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    Question: What do you think of the instruction of Cardinal Ratzinger setting up the Oath of Fidelity which includes a Profession of Faith?

    Archbishop Lefebvre: Firstly, there is the Credo which poses no problems. The Credo has remained intact. And, so the first and second sections raise no difficulties either. They are well-known things from a theological point of view. It is the third section which is very bad. What it means in practice is lining up on what the bishops of the world today think. In the preamble, besides, it is clearly indicated that this third section has been added because of the spirit of the Council. It refers to the Council and the so-called Magisterium of today, which, of course, is the Magisterium of the followers of the Council. To get rid of the error, they should have added, "...insofar as this Magisterium is in full conformity with Tradition."

    As it stands this formula is dangerous. It demonstrates clearly the spirit of these people with whom it is impossible to come to an agreement. It is absolutely ridiculous and false, as certain people have done, to present this Oath of Fidelity as a renewal of the Anti-Modernist Oath suppressed in the wake of the Council. All the poison in this third section which seems to have been made expressly in order to oblige those who have rallied to Rome to sign this profession of Faith and to state their full agreement with the bishops. It is as if in the times of Arianism one had said, "Now you are in agreement with everything that all the Arian bishops think."

    No, I am not exaggerating. It is clearly expressed in the introduction. It is sheer trickery. One may ask oneself if in Rome they didn't mean in this way to correct the text of the protocol. Although that protocol is not satisfactory to us, it still seems too much in our favor in Article III of the Doctrinal Declaration because it does not sufficiently express the need to submit to the Council.

    And so, I think now they are regaining lost ground. They are no doubt going to have these texts signed by the seminarians of the Fraternity of St. Peter before their ordination and by the priests of the Fraternity, who will then find themselves in the obligation of making an official act of joining the Conciliar Church.

    Differently from in the Protocol, in these new texts there is a submission to the Council and all the Conciliar bishops. That is their spirit and no one will change them.


    The second argument in this thread concerns the discussion of the nature of “ecclesiastical faith” and its formal objects.  The arguments of Msgr. Joseph Fenton are defended where he makes a compelling case that mere ecclesiastical faith does not even exist. This, like the 1989 Profession of Faith, is necessary to understand for the defense of the Faith against modernist errors. They together constitute the principle weapons be which Modernists destroy the Faith and then impose their errors on the faithful.

    Drew

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #74 on: April 10, 2016, 05:40:39 PM »
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  • You continue to confuse the phrase "of the intellect and will" with being the same thing as an unconditional assent of faith.  You just can't seem to get past that.

     

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