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Author Topic: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022  (Read 13534 times)

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Offline de Lugo

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Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2022, 11:58:04 AM »
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  • Well, alas, there's something to be said that their founder didn't understand himself.  That's why you have this tug-o-war.  "WE are the true children/follower of +Lefebvre.  No, WE are."  And both sides can produce +Lefebvre quotes to back up their position.  In the early 1980s, you find material from +Lefebvre where he was pursuing an agreement with Rome where he was extremely sympathetic to Rome.  That's when he ousted The Nine.  Then by 1986, around the time of Assisi, he was saying that he believed he might have to go sedevacantist and that he and Bishop de Castro Mayer had been closet sedevacantists for 20 years but "preferred to wait".

    There are two problems with this analysis:

    1) It is contradicted by Rome (e.g., That Rome understood Msgr. Lefebvre as having the "no practical accord before a doctrinal resolution" as his principle of action since La Pointet is proven by the quote in Part 1 of the interview with the quote from conciliar GREC/Roman priest Fr. Michel Lelong ), who certainly understood Msgr. Lefebvre of having this principle since 1988.  So it would be odd that both Rome and Msgr. de Galarreta (in his Reflections paper at Albano) would think such a principle to exist when it does not, and Msgr. Fellay himself admitting the existence of the principle in the Cor Unum of March 2012, when he hallucinated that "the new situation in Rome demands a new response from us," and announced he was moving away from it.

    2) The "wavering Lefebvre" argument sees only the external manifestation of the operative principle, without taking that operative principle itself into account: As Msgr. Williamson again explains in Part 1-2, Msgr. Lefebvre wanted to help Rome back to Tradition, and his willingness or unwillingness to negotiate always depended upon his perception of Rome's willingness to come back.  So when it looked like Rome was open to Tradition, he inclined towards them.  And when it looked like they were falling into the abyss, he backed away from them.  When he lost faith in the intentions of Rome in 1988, that was it.  His principles never changed, only extrinsic conditions did.  It was for this reason that the starting point for GREC in 1997 was to reestablish trust. 

    The Romans understand Lefebvre far better than his progeny (or the sedevacantists).
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #31 on: November 19, 2022, 12:00:02 PM »
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  • I'm sorry, but who is that seminarian?

    You are asking me to detract publicly?  Shame on you.  There are a few here who know my identity, and they know I do not lie (for the same reason I do not detract).  His identity (and the story I have recounted) are quite well known in Fraternity clerical circles.

    Noblesse oblige!
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #32 on: November 19, 2022, 12:20:11 PM »
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  • There are two problems with this analysis:

    1) It is contradicted by Rome (e.g., That Rome understood Msgr. Lefebvre as having the "no practical accord before a doctrinal resolution" as his principle of action since La Pointet is proven by the quote in Part 1 of the interview with the quote from conciliar GREC/Roman priest Fr. Michel Lelong ), who certainly understood Msgr. Lefebvre of having this principle since 1988.  So it would be odd that both Rome and Msgr. de Galarreta (in his Reflections paper at Albano) would think such a principle to exist when it does not, and Msgr. Fellay himself admitting the existence of the principle in the Cor Unum of March 2012, when he hallucinated that "the new situation in Rome demands a new response from us," and announced he was moving away from it.

    2) The "wavering Lefebvre" argument sees only the external manifestation of the operative principle, without taking that operative principle itself into account: As Msgr. Williamson again explains in Part 1-2, Msgr. Lefebvre wanted to help Rome back to Tradition, and his willingness or unwillingness to negotiate always depended upon his perception of Rome's willingness to come back.  So when it looked like Rome was open to Tradition, he inclined towards them.  And when it looked like they were falling into the abyss, he backed away from them.  When he lost faith in the intentions of Rome in 1988, that was it.  His principles never changed, only extrinsic conditions did.  It was for this reason that the starting point for GREC in 1997 was to reestablish trust. 

    The Romans understand Lefebvre far better than his progeny (or the sedevacantists).

    Well said. +W explains the situation in both videos. 

    I agree that the Romans understood +ABL far better than his progeny, or the sedevacantists. IMO, Rome had far more to lose if Tradition were to make a comeback in the Church. They couldn't allow that.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #33 on: November 19, 2022, 01:08:24 PM »
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  • Quote
    • Whether or not His Excellency should have been asked about "sex scandals", but as only three of five parts are posted that may be premature speculation.
    We've watched 4 parts of the interview at this point.  There is, we understand, a 5th part of around 10 minutes.  Thus far, nothing has been discussed about the scandals.  For me, of course, that is disappointing.

    Nevertheless, the interviews reveal some interesting history.  +W doubles down on the Jєωs, which I couldn't welcome more.  You'll never hear the present leaders of the Society excoriating the Jєωs like +W does.  Why? Because, as I believe, the Jєωs basically own the fallen SSPX.  IMO, You don't build a 40 million dollar monastery in VA with simple contributions from the SSPX faithful.  No, that's Jєω money!
    But the failure to even mention the present sex scandals is a disgrace, IMO.  These incidents priestly predations are not one-offs.  They reveal a clear pattern of sɛҳuąƖ misconduct and cover ups, going back probably to the 70s, long before the Archbishop met his Maker.  At least, say something.  At least, make some attempt to explain.

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #34 on: November 19, 2022, 01:39:50 PM »
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  • I have enjoyed the interview thus far.  Bishop Williamson is spot on with he calls Bernie Fellay a politician; that is what he is.  I agree with Hollingsworth: I hope the good Bishop is asked about the SSPX scandals.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #35 on: November 19, 2022, 01:47:47 PM »
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  • We've watched 4 parts of the interview at this point.  There is, we understand, a 5th part of around 10 minutes.  Thus far, nothing has been discussed about the scandals.  For me, of course, that is disappointing.

    Nevertheless, the interviews reveal some interesting history.  +W doubles down on the Jєωs, which I couldn't welcome more.  You'll never hear the present leaders of the Society excoriating the Jєωs like +W does.  Why? Because, as I believe, the Jєωs basically own the fallen SSPX.  IMO, You don't build a 40 million dollar monastery in VA with simple contributions from the SSPX faithful.  No, that's Jєω money!
    But the failure to even mention the present sex scandals is a disgrace, IMO.  These incidents priestly predations are not one-offs.  They reveal a clear pattern of sɛҳuąƖ misconduct and cover ups, going back probably to the 70s, long before the Archbishop met his Maker.  At least, say something.  At least, make some attempt to explain.

    Do you go to Chinese restaurants looking for pizza?
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #36 on: November 19, 2022, 01:57:14 PM »
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  • We've watched 4 parts of the interview at this point.  There is, we understand, a 5th part of around 10 minutes.  Thus far, nothing has been discussed about the scandals.  For me, of course, that is disappointing.

    Nevertheless, the interviews reveal some interesting history.  +W doubles down on the Jєωs, which I couldn't welcome more.  You'll never hear the present leaders of the Society excoriating the Jєωs like +W does.  Why? Because, as I believe, the Jєωs basically own the fallen SSPX.  IMO, You don't build a 40 million dollar monastery in VA with simple contributions from the SSPX faithful.  No, that's Jєω money!
    But the failure to even mention the present sex scandals is a disgrace, IMO.  These incidents priestly predations are not one-offs.  They reveal a clear pattern of sɛҳuąƖ misconduct and cover ups, going back probably to the 70s, long before the Archbishop met his Maker.  At least, say something.  At least, make some attempt to explain.


    Good point. Where is all this money coming from? There is no way the simple faithful can afford such monuments. I know the neo-SSPX is asking the faithful to enter into debt to cover the cost of these monuments, but it would still not come close to the cost of building these churches.

    Moreover, the SSPX stance was that the crisis in the Church was temporary, and the buildings would transfer from the modernist hands back to the faithful once it was over.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #37 on: November 19, 2022, 02:36:18 PM »
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  • Do you go to Chinese restaurants looking for pizza?

    This is the same nonsense we see when people attack +Vigano.  He could write a letter about the New Mass and Bergolgio's attempt to suppress it, and the haters come out of the woodwork condemning him for not attacking Donald Trump, even though there wasn't a word about politics in the entire thing.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #38 on: November 19, 2022, 02:50:26 PM »
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  • Good point. Where is all this money coming from? There is no way the simple faithful can afford such monuments.

    They extract it from the various SSPX chapels' collections, from selling chapels, etc.  They probably have a 30- to 50- year plan to pay for it.  I know of one chapel where they had saved up close to half a million dollars through various fundraisers to build a new church, and the money completely evaporated ... and so 20 years later (when the prior attempt had been forgotten about and there had been enough turnover in the laity attending the chapel) they had to start from scratch to build a new chapel.  You probably have a few wealthier contributors here or there.

    So the SSPX have about 130 chapels in the US.  Assuming an average size of 200 laity at each chapel, there would be about 26,000 faithful across the US, so $50,000,000 would break down to about $2,000 per person.  Divided over 30 years, that would be about $65-$70 per individual per year (not counting individual donations of more than that, especially from some wealthier benefactors).  They could extract that much from the chapels.  Also, there's an independent chapel in Ohio.  Father Carley is about 90 now, and he has left the chapel to the SSPX.  So the chapel is on some pretty prime real estate adjacent to a country club, and consists of many acres that could be divided up to build $1,000,000 homes on.  In addition, Father owns two houses adjacent to the property, one of them very nice, the other about average ... not to mention substantial cash assets / savings.  When Father passes away, since SSPX have a chapel within 30 minutes now of Father Carley's (they conveniently moved closer, from the far West Side of Cleveland to the Southeast Side, much closer to this chapel), there's 100% chance that when Father Carley passes away, they'll liquidate the chapel's assets for between 1 - 1.5 million dollars.  Multiply that kind of operation a dozen times, and there's some of your answer.  I was on the Board of Trustees there, and this is why I respectfully resigned rather than to sign the papers leaving the property to SSPX.

    But if you think about it, $50,000,000 would be sufficient to buy homes for 200 Catholic families.  I'm sure there are many couples with 8-10 children struggling to make ends meet, and many faithful assisting at Mass in dumpy little quasi-chapels, wondering whether the $50,000,000 could have been better spent.  They could have spent about $1,000,000 tops to expand Winona with an extra wing, modernize the HVAC system, etc. and it would have been perfectly fine.  Or I'm sure they could have built an adequate facility for about $10,000,000 from scratch.  So this is an incredible extravagence.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #39 on: November 19, 2022, 03:38:16 PM »
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  • But if you think about it, $50,000,000 would be sufficient to buy homes for 200 Catholic families.  I'm sure there are many couples with 8-10 children struggling to make ends meet, and many faithful assisting at Mass in dumpy little quasi-chapels, wondering whether the $50,000,000 could have been better spent.  They could have spent about $1,000,000 tops to expand Winona with an extra wing, modernize the HVAC system, etc. and it would have been perfectly fine.  Or I'm sure they could have built an adequate facility for about $10,000,000 from scratch.  So this is an incredible extravagence.

    As great is it would be for the SSPX to get into the charity business, and start giving brand-new homes to poor people, a similar argument could be made that even if they stuck to building and maintaining CHAPELS, the money could be better spent.

    I know that one of those $250,000 family homes you quote could buy PLENTY of chapel for many places. Our "chapel" here is a metal warehouse building 1,200 square feet, 12 foot roof. Even when you include assembly, putting in electrical/plumbing, air conditioning, and misc. "finishing", you could get a lot of chapel space for $100,000.

    Long story short, the SSPX was, and should be, in the "mission chapel" or "lifeboat" business. Not building parish CHURCHES, monuments, or anything like that. They should be all about building infrastructure for priests to travel around, stay here or there, say Mass here or there (some chapels larger, some smaller) and serving as many Faithful in the United States as possible. You know, saving souls and keeping the Faith alive. Transmitting the Faith to the next generation via Traditional doctrine, Mass, and sacraments. The only goal of +ABL.

    Building $50 million monuments does NOT meet that goal. That suggests a radically different goal (impressing The World, impressing the Modernists in Rome, etc.)

    Solving the Crisis in the Church was only ever a nice "extra". If the SSPX could have a hand in it, then great. But all THEY have to do (all WE have to do) is do our duty, keep the Faith, maintain hope, and save our souls. Solving the Crisis is in God's hands alone. He MIGHT make use of us -- but let's put it this way: He can best make use of us if we are faithful to HIM FIRST and put our TRUST IN HIM, not in man, not in marketing corporations, not in numbers, not in money.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #40 on: November 19, 2022, 03:54:01 PM »
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  • Long story short, the SSPX was, and should be, in the "mission chapel" or "lifeboat" business. Not building parish CHURCHES, monuments, or anything like that. They should be all about building infrastructure for priests to travel around, stay here or there, say Mass here or there (some chapels larger, some smaller) and serving as many Faithful in the United States as possible. You know, saving souls and keeping the Faith alive. Transmitting the Faith to the next generation via Traditional doctrine, Mass, and sacraments. The only goal of +ABL.

    As I've said before, this attitude suggests a complete change in mindset about the crisis, from believing this to be an aberration, a temporary (even if prolonnged) abnormality that will be "fixed" by God, at which point all of the churches and seminaries and buildings currently appropriated by the Concliarists will be restored to Catholic use.  In each city in the US you'll find one or two, and in the larger ones dozens of churches, many of which cannot be reproduced today for any price.  There's no need for a $50,000,000 "national" seminary when each diocese already has a fine seminary building or even campus, some of which put this new SSPX complex to shame.  This speaks to the fact that the SSPX view this aberrant situation in the Church as the "new normal", where you would have the Tridentine Mass as the "extraordinary rite" alongside the Novus Ordo.

    My point about the homes, by the way, was not that SSPX should be doing that, just by way of comparison to the resources that would be drained from the faithful for these absurd projects.  These are about people's egos, and we might as well name the seminary St. Bernard's Seminary in anticipation of the eventual canonization.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #41 on: November 19, 2022, 05:38:18 PM »
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  • This is the same nonsense we see when people attack +Vigano.  He could write a letter about the New Mass and Bergolgio's attempt to suppress it, and the haters come out of the woodwork condemning him for not attacking Donald Trump, even though there wasn't a word about politics in the entire thing.


    "... the haters come out of the woodwork.."


     Lads, you got the "Jєω talkie" down pat :laugh1:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #42 on: November 19, 2022, 06:04:45 PM »
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  • I don’t see +W giving much input on the sex scandals, since they’ve popped-up over the years even from his early Winona seminary days.


    Fr. Carlos Urrutigoity was operating at the SSPX Winona seminary in the 1990s.




    When you consider his clerical-homo career, he has to be a product of MK-Ultra.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #43 on: November 19, 2022, 08:18:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    Quote from: Jr1991 on Today at 01:57:14 PM
    Quote
    Good point. Where is all this money coming from? There is no way the simple faithful can afford such monuments.


    They extract it from the various SSPX chapels' collections, from selling chapels, etc.  They probably have a 30- to 50- year plan to pay for it. 
    Not sure I understand.  You mean that the SSPX does not presently have outright ownership of the "monument?"  Does some other party hold a fifty year mortgage, or some kind of promissory note?

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Sean Johnson interviews Bp. Williamson in Kansas, Nov 2022
    « Reply #44 on: November 19, 2022, 09:10:03 PM »
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  • My understanding is that the national SSPX gives these local chapels a mortgage of about five years. Forget a 30-year mortgage you get from a banker; they (the national SSPX) want their money back quickly. This was said at an SSPX fundraiser that I attended years ago. I don't know if it's true; maybe others have better information.