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Author Topic: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano  (Read 6952 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2023, 11:31:49 AM »
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  • Not only is it "extremely improbable", but no theologian has held this opinion since it was refuted by St. Robert.  

    Fr. Marie Dominique Bouix held the Third Opinion.





    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #31 on: November 15, 2023, 11:47:17 AM »
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  • Fr. Marie Dominique Bouix held the Third Opinion.
    .

    I think Ladislaus meant "no theologian that anyone has actually heard of". :laugh1:


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #32 on: November 15, 2023, 12:04:56 PM »
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  • Fr. Paul Kramer and Arnaldo Xavier de Silveira mention him in their work.  Also, this study by Fr. Dominique Boulet mentions him.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #33 on: November 15, 2023, 12:23:43 PM »
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  • Fr. Marie Dominique Bouix held the Third Opinion.

    OK.  I had never heard of this guy.  So I looked him up.  He actually holds the first opinion, that a Pope can't fall into heresy as a private person, and then among the three remaining others he considered (he had a list of 4), he did hold this was preferable.  He rejects John of St. Thomas' contention that having a General Council declare a Pope deposed would eliminate the chaos, saying that it would have the same effect.  Also, he rightly points out that if the Pope weren't deposed until a Church Council deposed him, the bishops would in fact be acting schismatically since the Pope would oppose and reject the Council ... if he didn't cease to be pope until the declaration.

    But here's the problem, and the problem with all the opinions.  They all refer to a Pope as a private person, not as teaching error and heresy to the Church.

    Here's a quote from Bouix --
    Quote
    To the faithful it would be said: Hold to the orthodox faith which the Pope teaches and defines ex officio as Pontiff: but reject the heresy to which he is said to adhere as a private person. Of this personal sin of the Pontiff it would be said, just as of his corrupted morals ...

    He denies that a Pope could teach heresy to the Church, but clearly has in mind someone like Jorge going around spouting heresy in private, like he does on his private plane or in interviews with Scalfari.  He likens private heresy to corrupt morals, but does not imagine a scenario of a pope teaching his heresy to the Church.

    Here's the link for those who want to read this opinion:
    https://lumenscholasticuм.wordpress.com/2019/05/05/bouix-on-the-pope-heretic/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #34 on: November 15, 2023, 12:25:58 PM »
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  • I think Ladislaus meant "no theologian that anyone has actually heard of". :laugh1:

    Right.  I stand corrected on my broad statement.  But it remains true that this was an extreme minority opinion.  This is the same scenario where I kept objecting to Stubborn's opinion of once Catholic always Catholic by virtue of the character of Baptism.  I said that was not held by any theologian, but I did find one cited by Msgr. Fenton, so I had to retract that.  He too was the only one who held that, and the opinion had been abandoned.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #35 on: November 15, 2023, 12:48:05 PM »
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  • So, I understand quite clearly why he opposes the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position that a Council cannot depose a pope.  He's saying that if he remains the pope until the Council's declaration, convening a Council against the will of the Pope would be schismatic and the declaration would in fact be judging a pope ... basically the same argument that most of the Bellarmine adherents make against the position.

    But it took me a long time to understand what the heck he was talking about in rejecting the ipso facto position:
    Quote
    Therefore 2° if it be conceded that the Pope lapsed into heresy does not thus fall from the Papacy, but that he is still Pope and retains Papal jurisdiction, it is repugnant that he be subject to the general council, and that he be able to be judged and deposed by it. And 1° if it be said that the Pope is ipso facto deposed because of heresy, it is repugnant that the council be above the Pope, since one deposed from the Papacy is no longer Pope. Therefore in no case can it happen that the Pope be subject to the jurisdiction of the general council because of heresy.

    He is assuming that a Council would judge him guilty of heresy.  So he's basically rejecting the S&S position for the same reasons a lot of us have rejected it.  If he's pope until he's judged guilty of heresy by a Council, you're judging a pope.

    So it looks like he's putting the S&S spin onto the ipso facto position, and rejecting it on those grounds.

    But he didn't address the actual Bellarmine position, which I believe is actually sedeprivationism before the term was coined.

    Bellarmine cites the example of Pope St. Celestine's teaching regarding the case of Nestorius, where Nestorius had lost authority and was in a state of excommunicandus from the moment he began to "preach" heresy, before the Pope had officially removed him from office.

    In fact, the whole point and argument made by those who hold the ipso facto position is precisely the same argument he's making that if the Pope is not deposed ipso facto, by God, BEFORE any judgment of a pope, this would be for a Council to exert authority over a Pope.  In this case, this would be a Council exercising authority over a non-pope.  So Bouix misrepresents the ipso facto position the same way S&S have done.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #36 on: November 15, 2023, 12:51:04 PM »
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  • OK.  I had never heard of this guy.  So I looked him up.  He actually holds the first opinion, that a Pope can't fall into heresy as a private person, and then among the three remaining others he considered (he had a list of 4), he did hold this was preferable. 

    Interesting.  The three people I mentioned in my post above have him holding the Third Opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #37 on: November 15, 2023, 12:55:20 PM »
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  • What's really bizarre is that he doesn't even mention Bellarmine as among those who hold this opinion:
    Quote
    THE SECOND OPINION which, supposing that the Pope can become a heretic, holds that he is deposed by heresy ipso facto. — TurrecremataAugustinus de AnconaPaludanusDriedo, Castillio, SymmanchasJacobatius, and Salmeron have defended this opinion. Its chief arguments generally are these: 1° Faith is the necessary foundation of any ecclesiastical jurisdiction whatsoever. Therefore the papal jurisdiction cannot stand simultaneous with heresy. Therefore the Pope, falling into heresy, by this very fact ceases to be Pope, that is, he is deposed. — 2° Many texts of the holy Fathers clearly indicate, that anyone who lacks faith is not able to have jurisdiction in the Church (see the citations in Suárez, De fide, disp. X, sect. vi, n. 2). — 3° A heretic is not a member of the Church; therefore neither can he be the head. — 4° A heretic ought to be avoided (II Titus 13:10); and he ought not to be greeted (II John 10-11). Therefore a fortiori obedience is not owed to him. But a Pope to whom obedience is not owed, is no longer Pope, but has been deprived of the Papacy. Therefore the Pope, by falling into heresy, ipso facto loses the papal power.

    Of all the theologians whom he cites as holding this, Bellarmine doesn't appear in the list.  Is it because he considers Bellarmine to hold the "it's not possible for a pope to become a heretic even as a private person" theory?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #38 on: November 15, 2023, 12:56:19 PM »
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  • Interesting.  The three people I mentioned in my post above have him holding the Third Opinion.

    "There has been no theologian of repute subscribing to the third opinion since Marie Dominique Bouix, a French canonist who died in December 1870. As I mentioned above, Bouix was the last to hold this opinion, and is only one out of 137 authors listed by Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira as having held this opinion. Yet, it is precisely this untenable opinion which is at present becoming popular among lay Catholic writers who seem unaware of the theologically problematic difficulties that beset this opinion."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #39 on: November 15, 2023, 01:13:15 PM »
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  • Interesting.  The three people I mentioned in my post above have him holding the Third Opinion.

    Yes, he holds what he numbers the First, but then later says "granting but not conceding" the possibility of a Pope becoming a heretic as a private person, which he refers to as a "hypothetical", he states that the Bellarmine 3rd opinion is most preferable and rejects the other two.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #40 on: November 15, 2023, 01:26:42 PM »
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  • So, digging in here to Bouix's reasoning for rejecting the ipso facto position:
    Quote
    This opinion is opposed by the following arguments: 1° If the Pope were deposed ipso facto because of heresy, this would happen either by divine law, or by human law. But it is neither. For since the penalty of deposition is most grave, in order that it be incurred by divine law, it would need to be expressed in divine law. But there is found no ordinance of divine law which establishes this, whether generally concerning heretics, or in particular concerning Bishops, or most particularly concerning the Pope. Nor is there any certain tradition concerning this.

    Bellarmine disputes that there's no "certain tradition" regarding the matter, holding that it was unanimously held by the Fathers.

    Apart from that, Bouix has an extremely narrow view of divine law.  Is he expecting something in the New Testament where Our Lord states, "If ever a successor of Peter falls into heresy, he would cease to be pope."  Divine Law can also be established by principles inherent in Catholic ecclesiology.  So, for example, I see no "ordinance of divine law" either stating that a female can't be the pope, nor do I see one that says an infidel can't be pope, nor an ordinance that some baptized Prot could not be the pope, etc.  These are known with certainty from Catholic doctrine / dogma regarding the nature of the Church and of the papacy, that only a male member of the Catholic Church can be a pope.  From there you define what membership in the Church means according to Catholic ecclesiology, and the conclusion is effectively divine law, whether or not there's some explicit statement made by Our Lord or in Sacred Scripture or Tradition (though Bellarmine holds that it is certain from Tradition).  Of course, Our Lord did teach that he who does not hear the Church should be treated as a heathen and a publican, i.e. as outside the Church.  This is very weak from Bouix.  I see now why no one has really heard of him.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #41 on: November 15, 2023, 01:33:58 PM »
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  • Bouix then goes on to give his second reason against ipso facto ... practical considerations:
    Quote
    2° It would be most pernicious for the Church, if the Pope were deposed ipso facto because of heresy. For this is understood either only of notorious and public heresy, or also of external occult heresy, or of internal heresy. Regarding public and notorious heresy, there would be doubt as to how great the notoriety or infamy ought to be, in order that the Pontiff be considered to have fallen from the Papacy. Then there would follow schisms, and all would be perplexed, especially if, notwithstanding the notoriety alleged, the Pope were to retain the see through force or through some other way, and were to exercise many of the acts of his office. With regard to external but occult heresy, even greater detriments would arise. For all of the deeds of the Pontiff who is thus an occult heretic, would be null and void, and this would be known to but a few. It would be still more inconvenient, if the Pope were deposed ipso facto by internal heresy, as is clear. Wherefore it cannot be supposed that Christ willed the Pontiff to be deprived of the papacy on account of heresy, unless perhaps after the Church should declare the Pope to be a heretic in fact.

    This would be more "pernicious for the Church" that to have Jorge Bergoglio destroying millions of souls and causing scandal by teaching heresy?  Just because there would be some doubts about the degree of notoriety required to establish heresy and non-papacy?  He blends together the occult heretic position, which Bellarmine has as separate, and of course rejects.  Bellarmine rejects it not for practical reasons, but because membership in the Church is established in the external forum and is something visible.

    So, as I said, for this reason he claims that due to confusion, the Church would need to declare him a heretic.  Nowhere does he address the quoad se and quoad nos problems, but is arguing here from purely practical considerations with very little theological content.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #42 on: November 15, 2023, 02:12:29 PM »
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  • Bouix then goes on to give his second reason against ipso facto ... practical considerations:
    This would be more "pernicious for the Church" that to have Jorge Bergoglio destroying millions of souls and causing scandal by teaching heresy?  Just because there would be some doubts about the degree of notoriety required to establish heresy and non-papacy?  He blends together the occult heretic position, which Bellarmine has as separate, and of course rejects.  Bellarmine rejects it not for practical reasons, but because membership in the Church is established in the external forum and is something visible.

    So, as I said, for this reason he claims that due to confusion, the Church would need to declare him a heretic.  Nowhere does he address the quoad se and quoad nos problems, but is arguing here from purely practical considerations with very little theological content.

    It is one of the primary merits of Cajetan/JST/Billuart's position, that their opinion avoids both these pitfalls:

    In rejecting Bouix, the Church is not placed in an inextricable situation in which it has no recourse.  To admit such a situation could transpire (especially were it to carry on indefinitely over generations) comes very close to an implicit denial that "the gates of hell shall not prevail."

    And in differing with St. Robert, their opinion avoids the practical evils mentioned by Bouix above.

    Here's an interesting presentation of it: https://dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-1-of-2/

    Here's Part 2: https://dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-2-of-2/

    And yet, in practice, even Cajetan/JST/Billuart's position cannot save the Church, since as Avrille concludes:

    "The text of John of St. Thomas develops this second point: the need for a judgment of the Church for the deposition of a heretical pope.  But at the same time, it shows the difficulty of such a judgment in the present circuмstances of the Church.  Indeed, it is easy to see that the vast majority of bishops share the Pope’s ideas about false ecuмenism, false religious freedom, etc.  It is therefore impossible to imagine in the current circuмstances, a judgment of a General Council which would declare the heresy of Pope Francis.  Humanly speaking we see the situation is hopeless.  We must wait that the Providence, in one way or another, shows the way to overcome this impasse."

    Theological argumentation aside, St. Robert's position has the benefit of escaping this impasse, but at a high price (but at a lesser price than maintaining the impasse?).  

    God knows.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #43 on: November 15, 2023, 02:29:04 PM »
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  • It amounts to saying "So what?" to the magisterium, as Lad does, or, saying "So what?" to the theologians as +Schneider does.

    Lad does not think the idea of a heretical pope ever entered into the mind of the popes who made the law, therefore to him and other sedes, the law is meaningless, and in order to satisfy one's curiosity and calm their spirit, one must resort to some theological speculations from some of the Fathers which they can agree with so as to remain a trad.

    +Schneider rightfully sticks to the law established by popes, disregards theological speculations as being inferior to the magisterium, and remains a conservative NOer.

    What else is new?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #44 on: November 15, 2023, 02:40:10 PM »
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  • In any case, it is absolutely certain that +Vigano will respond to Schneider's argument, and I can't wait to read it.

    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."