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Author Topic: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano  (Read 5316 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
« on: November 14, 2023, 08:32:08 PM »
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  • https://www.lifesitenews.com/episodes/bishop-schneider-responds-to-archbishop-vigano-on-papal-legitimacy/?utm_source=most_recent&utm_campaign=catholic

    2:15 - Schneider rejects Vigano's analogy to sacramental theology (rightly, I think, because acceptance of an office is not the confection of a sacrament).  But that does not negate the absurdity of Schneider's previously aired position regarding a heretical pope.

    5:45 - Repeating Billot

    9:50 - Rejects Vigano's historical example; says St. Vincent Ferrer who sided initially with anti-pope later recognized his error and sided with the true pope
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #1 on: November 14, 2023, 08:52:25 PM »
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  • Hmm...

    Schneider is making more formidable arguments than previously.

    At 14:30 - 17:00, he implicitly begins rejecting cuм Ex Apostolatus without naming it (this goes on for a couple minutes).

    :popcorn:

    PS: His weakness comes at 18:10 when he says it is a greater damage to have a deposition which divides the Church and plunges us back into a GWS, than to endure for a short time a bad pope.  That argument ignores that we have endured 65 years of bad popes, and there is no change in sight with a stacked deck (not merely the 10 years Schneider references under Francis).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #2 on: November 14, 2023, 09:17:29 PM »
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  • I've long suspected that +Schneider is the controlled opposition and gatekeeper for Jorge, carrying water for him.  This didn't become more clear than when he adopted the absurd opinion that there's no way for the Church to be rid of a heretical pope, an opinion that no one has held since Bellarmine first refuted it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #3 on: November 14, 2023, 09:22:49 PM »
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  • I've long suspected that +Schneider is the controlled opposition and gatekeeper for Jorge, carrying water for him.  This didn't become more clear than when he adopted the absurd opinion that there's no way for the Church to be rid of a heretical pope, an opinion that no one has held since Bellarmine first refuted it.

    Agreed, but this time he’s covering the bases (eg., saying that these theologians taught what they taught as theologians, but that the Church has never taught their positions magisterially).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #4 on: November 14, 2023, 09:24:28 PM »
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  • 2:15 - Schneider rejects Vigano's analogy to sacramental theology (rightly, I think, because acceptance of an office is not the confection of a sacrament).  

    I disagree.  It's an analogy regarding intention and it can apply whether one's dealing with the reception of a Sacrament or the acceptance of an office.  Bishop Sanborn has long made the same analogy.

    I don't agree that this is the crux of the issue, however.  I believe that the root cause of Jorge's illegitimacy goes back decades.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #5 on: November 14, 2023, 09:27:52 PM »
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  • Agreed, but this time he’s covering the bases (eg., saying that these theologians taught what they taught as theologians, but that the Church has never taught their positions magisterially).

    OK, so?  And the Church never taught his position Magisterially either, so his opinion is worth what?  ... other than to persuade fence-sitters like Matt, Marshall, and their followers to stay on board with Jorge.  As such, they are material cooperators with all the evils perpetrated by Jorge Bergoglio.  Since Schneider is not against him, he is with him.  Despite his posturing as such, +Schneider is no friend of Tradition, but an enemy.

    +Vigano recognizes that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, but an Anti-Church.  +Schneider just sees the situation as some problems that need to be fixed but don't go to the core of the faith.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #6 on: November 14, 2023, 09:34:18 PM »
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  • I believe that both +Huonder and +Schneider are agents of Jorge Bergoglio with distinct but related missions.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #7 on: November 14, 2023, 09:36:21 PM »
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  • Schneider’s big argument is that common sense and historical praxis show us that enduring a bad pope for a short time, and perhaps condemning him later, is much better than having some cardinals or bishops cause a schism by declaring him deposed.  And his grand finale is, “It (Francis’s pontificate) is not eternal.”

    The problem here is that the troubles which beset the Church are not merely the product of Francis, but span 65 years, a Council, and 7 popes (with all the voting cardinals in the next conclave being appointed by these aberrational popes, suggesting therefore that there will be continuity with what has transpired since the Council).

    It is against this backdrop that one must weigh the value of Schneider’s claim that the present troubles “are not eternal” and therefore enduring them is better than dividing the Church with sedevacantism or a deposition.

    One more consideration: Schneider’s position expresses great concern for the unity of the ecclesial body (eg., fear of schism), but which result is the worse for souls: the faithful enduring potentially hundreds of years of heretical popes, or a schism whereby the Church divides over the issue? 

    Very possibly, more would be saved in the latter scenario?

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #8 on: November 14, 2023, 09:40:34 PM »
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  • I believe that both +Huonder and +Schneider are agents of Jorge Bergoglio with distinct but related missions.
    Clearly.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #9 on: November 14, 2023, 10:50:48 PM »
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  • I’ll comment tomorrow when I have time, but the first five minutes I was able to listen to are complete hogwash.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #10 on: November 15, 2023, 04:54:10 AM »
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  • Thanks for this Sean and your commentary is very accurate. I think the interviewer was a bit lacking because he should have asked some pressing questions regarding V2, the other popes and the NO etc., but from what I heard, I get the impression that +Schneider likely would have defended all that. Beyond that, the things he said which you posted are those things that Catholics have always believed. Strange to hear a NO bishop say some of those things.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #11 on: November 15, 2023, 06:57:15 AM »
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  • Bishop Schneider holds to the Third Opinion of the Five Opinions expounded upon by St. Robert Bellarmine.  The Third Opinion is as follows:

    That a pope who is even a manifest heretic is not deposed ipso facto and cannot be deposed by the Church.

    St. Robert Bellarmine called this opinion "extremely improbable".  More importantly, this opinion indirectly opposes the Magisterium of Pope Pius XII who taught in Mystici Corporis that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.  

    Bishop Schneider's holding to the Third Opinion alone should make one ignore him on this matter.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #12 on: November 15, 2023, 07:37:38 AM »
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  • Bishop Schneider holds to the Third Opinion of the Five Opinions expounded upon by St. Robert Bellarmine.  The Third Opinion is as follows:

    That a pope who is even a manifest heretic is not deposed ipso facto and cannot be deposed by the Church.

    St. Robert Bellarmine called this opinion "extremely improbable".  More importantly, this opinion indirectly opposes the Magisterium of Pope Pius XII who taught in Mystici Corporis that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church. 

    Bishop Schneider's holding to the Third Opinion alone should make one ignore him on this matter.

    Not only is it "extremely improbable", but no theologian has held this opinion since it was refuted by St. Robert.  This opinion is a joke, and his clinging to it is to me the clearest sign that he's out there working for Jorge as a "Trad" gate-keeper and controlled opposition.

    One might also wonder why +Schneider hasn't been silenced.  +Strickland got sacked for saying much less than +Schneider's criticisms of Bergoglio.  It's possible that Jorge won't sack him or silence him because he doesn't want to turn more of the Trad, Inc. types against him even more ... or else he hasn't silenced him because he's actually working for him and his interests.  I'm inclined to think the latter.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #13 on: November 15, 2023, 07:39:47 AM »
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  • Thanks for this Sean and your commentary is very accurate. I think the interviewer was a bit lacking because he should have asked some pressing questions regarding V2, the other popes and the NO etc., but from what I heard, I get the impression that +Schneider likely would have defended all that. Beyond that, the things he said which you posted are those things that Catholics have always believed. Strange to hear a NO bishop say some of those things.

    +Schneider is already on record defending Vatican II.  He felt that V2 could be "fixed" by amending one or two sentences in it, so a bit more than +Fellay's 95% (maybe 99%).  That is what originally prompted +Vigano to issue his June 9, 2020 letter denouncing V2 as radically flawed and needing to be pitched completely ... that was a response to +Schneider.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #14 on: November 15, 2023, 07:52:37 AM »
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  • So +Schneider opens by rejecting +Vigano's vitium consensus position, calling it "extremely weak".  He claims that analogy with intention to receive a Sacrament doesn't apply, because we're dealing here with an office rather than a Sacrament.  This is a gratuitous assertion that is not backed up by anything, and it's false.  This is an analogy for sure, and analogies aren't perfect, but there's sufficient similarity between the two to justify the analogy.

    Both the reception of a Sacrament and assuming the papal office require consent.  If a man were elected pope and did not give his consent, he would not be the pope.  So the analogy is quite valid.  Question is WHAT the individual needs to consent to, merely to have the title?

    He also claims that intention is a matter of the internal forum.  This too is completely false.  Intention is something that can be expressed and known in the external forum.  "Internal Forum" only applies to matters related to subjective guilt and subjective dispositions, but things like intention can be known in the external forum.  If a woman told some friends that she intended to marry some guy just to get his money and had every intention of divorcing him after a few months, walking away with child support and alimony, that intention has been manifested in the external forum.  Now, her degree of guilt, given her knowledge, etc., THOSE are matters for the internal forum, but intention can be known in the external forum.  +Vigano makes a case for why we can know from the external forum that Bergoglio intended to "change" the Church ... based on his own public statements, and since the office of the Papacy inherently (as taught by Vatican II) is to preserve and safeguard the Deposit of Revelation (for which +Strickland even called out Jorge for denying), the argument is that he did not mean to assume the papal office in terms of what its purpose or primary end was.

    +Schneider then tries to make a false analogy with popes who only accepted the office for ulterior motives ... so they could enrich themselves, etc. and didn't really care about the papacy.  But none of these pervert popes expressed any contrary intention regarding the papal office itself, that they wanted to use it to change and corrupt the Church.  They simply had ulterior motives.  I liken this to the ends of marriage.  Most couples make use of that without any explicit thought or regard for the primary ends of marital relations, the procreation of children.  But so long as they don't exclude the primary end and recognize it intellectually to be the primary end, they're not subverting or excluding the primary end of marital relations.  Same thing with these popes.  They were primarily motivated by the ancillary benefits of being the pope, but they did not exclude the primary end of the office, to safeguard the Deposit of Revelation ... even if they could hardly care less about it on a day to day basis.  Argument regarding Jorge is that he deliberately sought to exclude and to contradict the primary end of the papal office, namely, to safeguard the Deposit of Faith.

    I'll come back to the rest later.