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Author Topic: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano  (Read 6904 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2023, 08:14:43 AM »
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  • So +Schneider opens by rejecting +Vigano's vitium consensus position, calling it "extremely weak".  He claims that analogy with intention to receive a Sacrament doesn't apply, because we're dealing here with an office rather than a Sacrament.  This is a gratuitous assertion that is not backed up by anything, and it's false.  This is an analogy for sure, and analogies aren't perfect, but there's sufficient similarity between the two to justify the analogy.
    He backed it up, he said the law states that "the man elected is instantly the true Pope, and he acquires and can exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world." <--- This is the law. Did he not basically say that although proper intention is presumed, according to the law it is not one of the requirements?

    Although I do agree that to us, "there's sufficient similarity between the two to justify the analogy," proper intention was not made a requirement by the former popes who made the law. According to the law therefore, the idea that proper intention is required is the gratuitous assertion whether we like it or not.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #16 on: November 15, 2023, 08:31:58 AM »
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  • So +Schneider opens by rejecting +Vigano's vitium consensus position, calling it "extremely weak".  He claims that analogy with intention to receive a Sacrament doesn't apply, because we're dealing here with an office rather than a Sacrament.  This is a gratuitous assertion that is not backed up by anything, and it's false.  This is an analogy for sure, and analogies aren't perfect, but there's sufficient similarity between the two to justify the analogy.

    Both the reception of a Sacrament and assuming the papal office require consent.  If a man were elected pope and did not give his consent, he would not be the pope.  So the analogy is quite valid.  Question is WHAT the individual needs to consent to, merely to have the title?

    He also claims that intention is a matter of the internal forum.  This too is completely false.  Intention is something that can be expressed and known in the external forum.  "Internal Forum" only applies to matters related to subjective guilt and subjective dispositions, but things like intention can be known in the external forum.  If a woman told some friends that she intended to marry some guy just to get his money and had every intention of divorcing him after a few months, walking away with child support and alimony, that intention has been manifested in the external forum.  Now, her degree of guilt, given her knowledge, etc., THOSE are matters for the internal forum, but intention can be known in the external forum.  +Vigano makes a case for why we can know from the external forum that Bergoglio intended to "change" the Church ... based on his own public statements, and since the office of the Papacy inherently (as taught by Vatican II) is to preserve and safeguard the Deposit of Revelation (for which +Strickland even called out Jorge for denying), the argument is that he did not mean to assume the papal office in terms of what its purpose or primary end was.

    +Schneider then tries to make a false analogy with popes who only accepted the office for ulterior motives ... so they could enrich themselves, etc. and didn't really care about the papacy.  But none of these pervert popes expressed any contrary intention regarding the papal office itself, that they wanted to use it to change and corrupt the Church.  They simply had ulterior motives.  I liken this to the ends of marriage.  Most couples make use of that without any explicit thought or regard for the primary ends of marital relations, the procreation of children.  But so long as they don't exclude the primary end and recognize it intellectually to be the primary end, they're not subverting or excluding the primary end of marital relations.  Same thing with these popes.  They were primarily motivated by the ancillary benefits of being the pope, but they did not exclude the primary end of the office, to safeguard the Deposit of Revelation ... even if they could hardly care less about it on a day to day basis.  Argument regarding Jorge is that he deliberately sought to exclude and to contradict the primary end of the papal office, namely, to safeguard the Deposit of Faith.

    I'll come back to the rest later.

    Great post, Lad!!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #17 on: November 15, 2023, 08:40:20 AM »
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  • He backed it up, he said the law states that "the man elected is instantly the true Pope, and he acquires and can exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world." <--- This is the law. Did he not basically say that although proper intention is presumed, according to the law it is not one of the requirements?

    Although I do agree that to us, "there's sufficient similarity between the two to justify the analogy," proper intention was not made a requirement by the former popes who made the law. According to the law therefore, the idea that proper intention is required is the gratuitous assertion whether we like it or not.

    But Lad’s point still stands:

    A man does not become pope once he is elected, but only once he accepts.

    Now, whether having an intention contrary to the purpose of the office of pope nullifies that “acceptance,” is the heart of the matter.

    I’m not sure what the correct answer is, but I know this:

    On the one hand, if Vigano is right, then all the adverse consequences of the sedevacantist position must now be dealt with (eg., the disappearance of apostolicity, and so on).

    On the other hand, it seems preposterous to me that Schneider’s position could be the correct one.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #18 on: November 15, 2023, 08:53:43 AM »
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  • On the one hand, if Vigano is right, then all the adverse consequences of the sedevacantist position must now be dealt with (eg., the disappearance of apostolicity, and so on).

    +Schneider says that the Church can withstand a pope who's in error.  Well, no duh, we all know that.  We know the Church is indefectible.  That's a red herring.  Question is whether a Pope who's not only in error but teaching error from the chair (in his "Magisterium") is compatible with the promises of Christ regarding the Catholic Church.  While the Church per se can withstand such a "pope," tell that to the untold millions of souls who have been lost on account of V2 and the post-V2 papal claimants.

    See, people like +Schneider have the obligation to stand up to Jorge and accuse him ... as +Vigano has done.  That is precisely how the Church would rid herself of a heretic pope, where the hierarchy stands up to him and they would ultimately declare him a heretic.  So +Schneider is shirking his responsibility as a bishop to do exactly that, and his clinging to the bogus "third opinion" is his way of shirking that duty, claiming there's nothing they can do.

    I find it ironic that his name is Athanasius.  We know St. Athanasius, and "he's no Athanasius".  He should be called Liberius Schneider, since it was Liberius who played footsie with the Arians (and is thus the first non-canonized pope in the Church).  Athanaius on the other hand did what he had to do, going around consecrating Catholic bishops for Sees that had been usurped by the Arians.  You can be 100% certain that if Liberius had gone full Arian, St. Athanaius would have denounced him and worked to have him replaced by an actual Catholic.

    At the end of the day, however, I am inclined to think that +Schneider is controlled opposition, a gate-keeper ... to prevent Trad, Inc. from going off into Traditional Catholicism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #19 on: November 15, 2023, 09:02:25 AM »
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  • On the other hand, it seems preposterous to me that Schneider’s position could be the correct one.

    Yeah, it's St. Robert Bellarmine vs. +Schneider.  I think I'd have to side with St. Robert there.  No to mention that no theologian has for centuries held that "third opinion".

    I haven't gotten to the part yet where he rejects cuм ex.  There you have Pope Paul IV vs. +Schneider ... and, again, I'd have to go with Pope Paul IV.  But perhaps I misunderstand and he's merely denying that cuм ex applies to the current situation.  I haven't actually listened to that part yet.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #20 on: November 15, 2023, 09:02:40 AM »
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  • Before the day is out, I’m going to send a link to this interview to Avrille, along with some commentary, and ask them to assess the positions of Vigano and Schneider.

    I’ll be particularly interested to see what they say, since they support Vigano, but his consent argument seems implicitly opposed to the “one pope for two churches” position we RR have backed from the beginning.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #21 on: November 15, 2023, 09:06:30 AM »
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  • Did they publish a written transcript of the interview?  It would be nice to have it in writing rather than parsing out stuff from a video/audio.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #22 on: November 15, 2023, 09:19:16 AM »
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  • So in the next section he's denouncing the notion that any kind of irregularities in conclaves would render an election invalid, since once he's accepted by the Cardinals and Bishops, he's the pope ... since the method of election is not of divine law.  Of course it's not of divine law, but it's of papal law.  Popes lay down the method of election for their successors, and those must be abided by.  Not only does it render cuм ex moot, but also any of the conditions laid out by Wojtyla the Great (or earlier by Pius XII) that, according to their instructions, would invalidate an election.  Evidently Wojtyla felt that certain things should invalidate an election, and so did Paul IV ... despite +Schneider's claims to the contrary.

    So the divine law vs. papal law is a distinction without a difference.  It's a bogus.  The fact that it's not of divine law is what allows various popes to change the method of election, but that doesn't mean that the papal law means nothing and can be ignored.  If something IS of divine law, the pope can't change it.  So, for instance, the pope can't abrogate one of the 10 commandments.  But the pope can make law beyond the divine law, where if it's bound on earth it's bound in heaven.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #23 on: November 15, 2023, 09:30:31 AM »
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  • His weakness comes at 18:10 when he says it is a greater damage to have a deposition which divides the Church and plunges us back into a GWS, than to endure for a short time a bad pope.  That argument ignores that we have endured 65 years of bad popes, and there is no change in sight with a stacked deck (not merely the 10 years Schneider references under Francis).
    .

    Yes, and also it falsely claims that Bergoglio being declared deposed would split the Church. It wouldn't. What would happen would be that  Bergoglio and all his followers would be excommunicated, like Martin Luther, and then they would be outside the Church, while the Church itself would remain intact.

    Moreover, the problems with Bergoglio will not end with his death. As long as he is considered to be a true pope, the Church will have the insoluble problem to explain how a pope could officially allow adulterers to receive communion by a universal Church law, for example. If he is declared a false pope, that problem is resolved. If we just wait around until he dies, it is not resolved.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #24 on: November 15, 2023, 09:47:06 AM »
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  • So in the next section he's denouncing the notion that any kind of irregularities in conclaves would render an election invalid, since once he's accepted by the Cardinals and Bishops, he's the pope

    His argument here is easily refuted simply be reflecting upon the theoretical absurdity which would arise, were a man elected, but openly refused to accept the papacy:

    According to Schneider’s logic, so long as all the cardinals insisted he was pope anyway, then pope he would be!

    This absurd theoretical highlights the argument that consent is a relevant factor.

    And a rhetorical question to Schneider supporters would be this: If there is no recourse against an elected and universally accepted pope, then why did JPII bother to write about invalidating causes in UDG (ie., any such considerations would be frivolous)?

    But the biggest weakness in Schneider’s position, to me, is his claim that we only endure a bad pope for a short time (“It is not eternal.”).  But if we’ve now endured 7 popes deviating from the Faith, who’ve stacked the deck to ensure the continuity of said deviations, then Schneider’s position is no less problematic than sedevacantism, since heretical popes stretched out across several generations, against whom we have no recourse, all but guarantees the loss of orthodox belief on earth (whereas sedevacantism, supposing it were wrong, would only result in schism, leaving a large group who rejected it still retaining the faith).

    Effectively, Schneider is saying that schism is the greatest evil, but never pauses to consider that while his position would ostensibly preserve ecclesiastical unity, that unity would be predicated upon universal apostasy (which is indisputably a greater evil than schism, for the aforementioned reason).

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #25 on: November 15, 2023, 09:49:15 AM »
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  • He gets really ridiculous toward the end, when he's asked whether if a subsequent Pope were to retroactively declare Jorge a heretic and non-pope, he would fight that or accept it.  He says the Church will never do this because the Magisterium has never endorsed the idea that a Pope would lose his office for heresy.  So what?  Just because the Magisterium hasn't endorsed the idea yet (although we do have a teaching from Pope Innocent that says otherwise, and Paul IV says otherwise, etc.), the Magisterium hasn't rejected the notion or ruled it out.  It's as if he's extrapolating a non-decision from the Magisterium as a decision that Popes cannot lose office on account of heresy.  There's an overwhelming consensus to the contrary since the time of St. Robert Bellarmine.  Even those who continue with the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position don't agree with this.  It's utter nonsense.  Basically, he's pretending that the Magisterium has endorsed the "third opinion", which is utter nonsense.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #26 on: November 15, 2023, 09:55:17 AM »
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  • It's as if he's extrapolating a non-decision from the Magisterium as a decision that Popes cannot lose office on account of heresy.  There's an overwhelming consensus to the contrary since the time of St. Robert Bellarmine.  Even those who continue with the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position don't agree with this.  It's utter nonsense.  Basically, he's pretending that the Magisterium has endorsed the "third opinion", which is utter nonsense.

    Agreed, and agreed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #27 on: November 15, 2023, 11:09:11 AM »
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  • But Lad’s point still stands:

    A man does not become pope once he is elected, but only once he accepts.
    But that is not what the law says, it says "once elected he "instantly" becomes the pope, which is to say he is the pope once elected - but - if he does not want to be the pope, then it's either too bad for him, or he has to abdicate. That is the law. 

    That being the case and if you start there, then all the ideas about intention are gratuitous assertions whether we like it or not, or if we think it should not work that way.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #28 on: November 15, 2023, 11:12:57 AM »
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  • He gets really ridiculous toward the end, when he's asked whether if a subsequent Pope were to retroactively declare Jorge a heretic and non-pope, he would fight that or accept it.  He says the Church will never do this because the Magisterium has never endorsed the idea that a Pope would lose his office for heresy.  So what?  Just because the Magisterium hasn't endorsed the idea yet (although we do have a teaching from Pope Innocent that says otherwise, and Paul IV says otherwise, etc.), the Magisterium hasn't rejected the notion or ruled it out.  It's as if he's extrapolating a non-decision from the Magisterium as a decision that Popes cannot lose office on account of heresy.  There's an overwhelming consensus to the contrary since the time of St. Robert Bellarmine.  Even those who continue with the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position don't agree with this.  It's utter nonsense.  Basically, he's pretending that the Magisterium has endorsed the "third opinion", which is utter nonsense.
    You're looking at this through the wrong lenses. What is happening here is that the Magisterium teaches the man elected is the pope - period. But you're saying "so what?" This is all it amounts to.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Schneider sent in for damage control contra Vigano
    « Reply #29 on: November 15, 2023, 11:21:48 AM »
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  • I've long suspected that +Schneider is the controlled opposition and gatekeeper for Jorge, carrying water for him.  This didn't become more clear than when he adopted the absurd opinion that there's no way for the Church to be rid of a heretical pope, an opinion that no one has held since Bellarmine first refuted it.
    .

    Not to mention ... who benefits from promoting this opinion? Our old friend Bergoglio, of course!

    I did think Schneider was of good intentions in the past, but now it's starting to look doubtful to me as well.