Author Topic: SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272  (Read 4162 times)

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Offline MaterDominici

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SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272
« on: September 28, 2012, 11:28:44 PM »
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  • SARTO, SIRI ?

    In a sermon for the Feast of St Pius X I found myself uttering (almost a heresy): I wondered aloud whether Giuseppe Sarto would have disobeyed Paul VI’s destruction of the Church, if, instead of dying as Pope Pius X in 1914, he had died as a Cardinal in, say, 1974. Within the Society of St Pius X that must sound like a heresy because how can the wisdom of the heavenly patron of the SSPX be in any way flawed ? Yet the question is not idle.

    In the 1970’s Archbishop Lefebvre made personal visits to a number of the Church’s best cardinals and bishops in the hope of persuading a mere handful of them to offer public resistance to the Vatican II revolution. He used to say that just half a dozen bishops resisting together could have seriously obstructed the Conciliar devastation of the Church. Alas, not even Pius XII’s choice of successor, Cardinal Siri of Genoa, would make a public move against the Church Establishment. Finally Bishop de Castro Mayer stepped forward, but only in the 1980’s, by when the Conciliar Revolution was well ensconced at the top of the Church.

    So how could the best of well-trained minds have been so darkened ? How could so few of the best churchmen at that time not have seen what the Archbishop was seeing, for instance that the “law” establishing the Novus Ordo Mass was no law at all, because it belongs to the very nature of law to be an ordinance of reason for the common good ? How could he have been so relatively alone in not letting such a basic principle of common sense be smothered by respect for authority, when the Church’s very survival was being placed in peril by Vatican II and the New Mass ? How can authority have so gained the upper hand on reality and truth ?

    My own answer is that for seven centuries Christendom has been sliding into apostasy. For 700 years, with noble interruptions like the Counter-Reformation, the reality of Catholicism has been slowly eaten away by the cancerous fantasy of liberalism, which is the freeing of man from God by the freeing of nature from grace, of mind from objective truth and of will from objective right and wrong. For the longest time, 650 years, the Catholic churchmen clung to and defended reality, but finally enough of the engrossing fantasy of glamorous modernity worked its way into their bones for reality to lose its grip on their minds and wills. Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth. There are practical lessons for clergy and laity alike.

    Colleagues inside and outside the SSPX, to serve God, let us beware of reacting like Giuseppe Siri when we need to be reacting like Giuseppe Sarto, with his magnificent denunciations of the modern errors in Pascendi, Lamentabili and the Letter on the Sillon. And to obtain the grace we need in this most tremendous crisis of all Church history, we need tremendously to pray.

    Layfolk, if horrors of modern life make you “hunger and thirst after justice”, rejoice if you can that the horrors are keeping you real, and do not doubt that if you persevere in your hunger, you will “have your fill” (Mt.V, 6). Blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and they that mourn, says Our Lord, in the same place. As for the surest protection against your minds and hearts being taken over by the fantasy, pray five, better fifteen, Mysteries a day of Our Lady’s Holy Rosary.

    Kyrie eleison.
     
    © 2012 Richard N. Williamson. All Rights Reserved.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline guitarplucker

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    SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272
    « Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 12:10:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici

    Layfolk, if horrors of modern life make you “hunger and thirst after justice”, rejoice if you can that the horrors are keeping you real, and do not doubt that if you persevere in your hunger, you will “have your fill” (Mt.V, 6).


    That's a good point.


    Offline JMacQ

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    SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272
    « Reply #2 on: September 29, 2012, 02:40:28 AM »
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  • "Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth."

    It does now occur to me that Bishop Williamson is indeed a new Thomas More or John Fisher, facing the entire hierarchy gone insane.
    O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
    Praised be Jesus ad Mary!

    "Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta"

    Offline nadieimportante

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    SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272
    « Reply #3 on: September 29, 2012, 07:32:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    SARTO, SIRI ?

    In the 1970’s Archbishop Lefebvre made personal visits to a number of the Church’s best cardinals and bishops in the hope of persuading a mere handful of them to offer public resistance to the Vatican II revolution. He used to say that just half a dozen bishops resisting together could have seriously obstructed the Conciliar devastation of the Church......

    So how could the best of well-trained minds have been so darkened ? How could so few of the best churchmen at that time not have seen what the Archbishop was seeing,... How could he have been so relatively alone in not letting such a basic principle of common sense be smothered ... when the Church’s very survival was being placed in peril ... How can authority have so gained the upper hand on reality and truth ?

    My own answer is that for seven centuries Christendom has been sliding into apostasy. For 700 years, with noble interruptions like the Counter-Reformation, the reality of Catholicism has been slowly eaten away by the cancerous fantasy of liberalism, which is the freeing of man from God by the freeing of nature from grace, of mind from objective truth and of will from objective right and wrong. For the longest time, 650 years, the Catholic churchmen clung to and defended reality, but finally enough of the engrossing fantasy of glamorous modernity worked its way into their bones for reality to lose its grip on their minds and wills. Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth. There are practical lessons for clergy and laity alike.

     


    If I were to substitute Fr. Feeney (and his struggle to defend EENS as it was written) for Abp. Lefevbre in the quote above, it would perfectly describe what happened to him. The exact same thing quoted above happened to Fr. Feeney 20 years before. And they were both illegally excommunicated.
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Pius IX

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    SARTO, SIRI ? - EC 272
    « Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 11:24:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    SARTO, SIRI ?

    In the 1970’s Archbishop Lefebvre made personal visits to a number of the Church’s best cardinals and bishops in the hope of persuading a mere handful of them to offer public resistance to the Vatican II revolution. He used to say that just half a dozen bishops resisting together could have seriously obstructed the Conciliar devastation of the Church......

    So how could the best of well-trained minds have been so darkened ? How could so few of the best churchmen at that time not have seen what the Archbishop was seeing,... How could he have been so relatively alone in not letting such a basic principle of common sense be smothered ... when the Church’s very survival was being placed in peril ... How can authority have so gained the upper hand on reality and truth ?

    My own answer is that for seven centuries Christendom has been sliding into apostasy. For 700 years, with noble interruptions like the Counter-Reformation, the reality of Catholicism has been slowly eaten away by the cancerous fantasy of liberalism, which is the freeing of man from God by the freeing of nature from grace, of mind from objective truth and of will from objective right and wrong. For the longest time, 650 years, the Catholic churchmen clung to and defended reality, but finally enough of the engrossing fantasy of glamorous modernity worked its way into their bones for reality to lose its grip on their minds and wills. Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth. There are practical lessons for clergy and laity alike.

     


    If I were to substitute Fr. Feeney (and his struggle to defend EENS as it was written) for Abp. Lefevbre in the quote above, it would perfectly describe what happened to him. The exact same thing quoted above happened to Fr. Feeney 20 years before. And they were both illegally excommunicated.


    Pius XII was a legitimate authority. The conciliar popes are not.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 09:15:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Bishop Williamson
    SARTO, SIRI ?

    In the 1970’s Archbishop Lefebvre made personal visits to a number of the Church’s best cardinals and bishops in the hope of persuading a mere handful of them to offer public resistance to the Vatican II revolution. He used to say that just half a dozen bishops resisting together could have seriously obstructed the Conciliar devastation of the Church......

    So how could the best of well-trained minds have been so darkened ? How could so few of the best churchmen at that time not have seen what the Archbishop was seeing,... How could he have been so relatively alone in not letting such a basic principle of common sense be smothered ... when the Church’s very survival was being placed in peril ... How can authority have so gained the upper hand on reality and truth ?

    My own answer is that for seven centuries Christendom has been sliding into apostasy. For 700 years, with noble interruptions like the Counter-Reformation, the reality of Catholicism has been slowly eaten away by the cancerous fantasy of liberalism, which is the freeing of man from God by the freeing of nature from grace, of mind from objective truth and of will from objective right and wrong. For the longest time, 650 years, the Catholic churchmen clung to and defended reality, but finally enough of the engrossing fantasy of glamorous modernity worked its way into their bones for reality to lose its grip on their minds and wills. Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth. There are practical lessons for clergy and laity alike.

     


    If I were to substitute Fr. Feeney (and his struggle to defend EENS as it was written) for Abp. Lefevbre in the quote above, it would perfectly describe what happened to him. The exact same thing quoted above happened to Fr. Feeney 20 years before. And they were both illegally excommunicated.


    Correct. 700 years is a long time. There was serious corruption lurking under the
    surface long before Vatican II. The problems in the Church did not suddenly start
    overnight in 1960, or 1958. Remember, Pope St. Pius X was almost not elected.
    And that was in 1903! Let's see: 59 years before Vatican II!!

    Quote from: +Williamson
    Colleagues inside and outside the SSPX, to serve God, let us beware of reacting like Giuseppe Siri when we need to be reacting like Giuseppe Sarto, with his magnificent denunciations of the modern errors in Pascendi, Lamentabili and the Letter on the Sillon. And to obtain the grace we need in this most tremendous crisis of all Church history, we need tremendously to pray.


    Rompolla, a Freemason, was elected first, and VALIDLY. If it had not been for the
    VETO of one rare privilege (which had been largely forgotten!) we would have had
    no Pascendi, Lamentabili sane, nor Letter on the Sillon! So much for the
    sedevacantist canard that a Freemason cannot be validly elected Pope. And was
    that rare veto power a good thing? Well, perhaps it was - because it gave us a
    saint for a pope, at a most critical moment in salvation history; but what was the
    first official act of the new saint-pope? He abolished the rare veto power that had
    given him the Papacy.

    He climbed into a space capsule, closed the hatch, and permanently locked the
    door. Then he was launched. And there is no turning back.

    There were lots of problems before Vatican II. How in God's heaven could all
    the cardinals at an ecumenical council accept heretical documents if there were
    no problems? Fr. Feeney was ordered to come to Rome on "disciplinary" issues,
    but the officials who "ordered" him refused to divulge the reasons. They
    deliberately neglected to state what the charges were against him. How was he
    supposed to prepare a defense? Show me one lawyer anywhere in the world
    who will agree to go to court for such a proceeding without having any clue as
    to what the charges are against his client.  That's not due process. That's not
    Catholic. That's Communism. That is the Errors of Russia in practice! And that
    was 13 years before Vatican II.

    It happened to Fr. Feeney in 1949 and then it happened again to Fr. Gruner
    decades later. Why? Both priests were daring to say what the Vatican wanted
    to cover up.
    Fr. Feeney was proclaiming the THRICE DEFINED DOGMA of the
    Faith, EENS. They couldn't have that, because the Roman officials were getting
    ready to have Vatican II, in which EENS would be "gently debunked," and they
    needed to make a PUBLIC EXAMPLE of the one, brave priest in the entire
    world who had "put his finger" on that dogma, identifying it as the crux of the
    modern crisis. Why do you suppose EENS had to be defined THREE times instead
    of just once? Because, during those "700 years," EENS was under attack by the
    denizens of hell, that's why! Rome was quietly building up resistance to EENS and
    spreading the foul contagion of liberalism among the cardinals, and with the
    stupid, invalid "excommunication" of Fr. Feeney, they made a public example of
    him. He was the scapegoat for their unholy agenda. "Any of you cardinals, bishops
    or priests want to follow the path of Fr. Feeney? Just DARE to teach EENS in public
    and see what will happen to you!" They wouldn't dare say it, that would be too
    honest.

    Years later, Fr. Feeney was "reinstated" all of a sudden, and the means by which
    they did that was by having him and a small group of representatives from
    Rome recite, in Latin, that outside the Church there is no salvation. Does that
    make any sense? He was "excommunicated" because he was teaching EENS, and
    then the "excommunication" was "lifted" by having him pronounce EENS?  

    In Fr. Gruner's case, if it had not been for the historical record of Fr. Feeney's
    story, it might have been a lot more challenging. But Fr. Gruner and his council
    were able to persuade Rome to divulge the nature of the charges against him,
    so they could prepare a defense. And being prepared, they went to Rome and
    were exonerated. Without Fr. Feeney's story to study, they might not have been
    able to pull that off.

    All these things tie together. The devil never sleeps and the attacks against the
    Church will never end in this life.  Now the big push is against +Williamson, but
    the only "crime" he has committed is uttering the truth, or, perhaps giving voice
    to his own inspired speculation. First, regarding the historical facts of the fate of
    Jews during WWII, and now, whether Sarto would have behaved as Siri. How
    dare he THINK!?  Where does he get the idea he is allowed to THINK?! Doesn't
    he know that Freemasons, Jews, Mohammedans and Fags are the only ones who
    can THINK?  In public, that is.  But H.E. had better be careful.  He might be
    caught thinking in private, too, and that would be a "THOUGHT CRIME."  

    He might find himself thrown into jail because of a "thought crime" that he MIGHT
    commit one day in the future!!


    When that happens, we can be pretty sure the BEAST is here, and the END TIMES
    have arrived. Let us pray (as he suggests) that Holy Mother Church might be
    restored, and we can enjoy (at least for a while!) a "period of peace," as Our
    Lady of Fatima promised.



    Quote from: +Williamson
    ... And to obtain the grace we need in this most tremendous crisis of all Church history, we need tremendously to pray.

    ... As for the surest protection against your minds and hearts being taken over by the fantasy, pray five, better fifteen, Mysteries a day of Our Lady’s Holy Rosary.




    Some might dare accuse me of "hanging on every word of +Williamson." You know,
    I really don't mind being so accused. I would wear that as a badge of honor. My
    reply to that is you are all most welcome to hang on every word of his too, because
    there is hardly anyone else writing today whose words are worth hanging on as
    are his.

    And as for hanging, recall the words of another man, who wasn't even Catholic:

    "We can all hang together, or we shall all hang separately."







    Quote from: Pius IX
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    SARTO, SIRI ?
     


    If I were to substitute Fr. Feeney (and his struggle to defend EENS as it was written) for Abp. Lefevbre in the quote above, it would perfectly describe what happened to him. The exact same thing quoted above happened to Fr. Feeney 20 years before. And they were both illegally excommunicated.


    Pius XII was a legitimate authority. The conciliar popes are not.



    And you are now a legitimate authority? Who needs another council? We have all
    our answers right here on an Internet forum by "Pius IX" who died what, over
    120 years ago?

    Huh??


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    Online roscoe

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    « Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 12:16:03 PM »
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  • MO is that it is blasphemous to assert that Card Rampolla( close friend & confidant of Popes Leo, Pius & Card Raphael) was a freemason. I doubt he was legally elected. It is the Freemason Franz- Joseph that tries to 'veto' Rampolla
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Online roscoe

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    « Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 12:31:58 PM »
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  • I do not believe that Card Rampolla was validly elected in 1903. I do suspect however that Card Raphael may have been legally elected in 1914.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Online roscoe

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    « Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 12:48:04 PM »
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  • BTW-- there were about 30 Cardinals who voted for Rampolla, including Card's Raphael & Sarto.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

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    « Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »
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  • It should also be remembered that it was Pius IX who abolished the privlige of the 'veto'. Pius X only added the penalty of ex-communication to anyone who tries to use it in the future. This is in response to the low-life tactic being used on his close friend Card Rampolla.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

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    « Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 01:32:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    MO is that it is blasphemous to assert that Card Rampolla( close friend & confidant of Popes Leo, Pius & Card Raphael) was a freemason. I doubt he was legally elected. It is the Freemason Franz- Joseph that tries to 'veto' Rampolla


    Possibly blasphemous is a little to strong of a term-- nearly blasphemous is probably more accurate.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Incredulous

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    « Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 07:16:53 PM »
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  • When the "Lion of Wimbledon" speaks




    Menzingen quivers:



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

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    « Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 01:57:54 AM »
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  • This orig post is apparently not concerned with what actually happened at the conclave of 1958.  :confused1:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #13 on: October 02, 2012, 05:54:17 AM »
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  • Man or mouse? the question lingers



    Let that deal slip through his fingers



    Best-laid plans of mice and men...

     

    The mice you'll find in Men-zing-en!
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    « Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 11:16:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    SARTO, SIRI ?

    In a sermon for the Feast of St Pius X I found myself uttering (almost a heresy): I wondered aloud whether Giuseppe Sarto would have disobeyed Paul VI’s destruction of the Church, if, instead of dying as Pope Pius X in 1914, he had died as a Cardinal in, say, 1974. Within the Society of St Pius X that must sound like a heresy because how can the wisdom of the heavenly patron of the SSPX be in any way flawed ? Yet the question is not idle.

    In the 1970’s Archbishop Lefebvre made personal visits to a number of the Church’s best cardinals and bishops in the hope of persuading a mere handful of them to offer public resistance to the Vatican II revolution. He used to say that just half a dozen bishops resisting together could have seriously obstructed the Conciliar devastation of the Church. Alas, not even Pius XII’s choice of successor, Cardinal Siri of Genoa, would make a public move against the Church Establishment. Finally Bishop de Castro Mayer stepped forward, but only in the 1980’s, by when the Conciliar Revolution was well ensconced at the top of the Church.

    So how could the best of well-trained minds have been so darkened ? How could so few of the best churchmen at that time not have seen what the Archbishop was seeing, for instance that the “law” establishing the Novus Ordo Mass was no law at all, because it belongs to the very nature of law to be an ordinance of reason for the common good ? How could he have been so relatively alone in not letting such a basic principle of common sense be smothered by respect for authority, when the Church’s very survival was being placed in peril by Vatican II and the New Mass ? How can authority have so gained the upper hand on reality and truth ?

    My own answer is that for seven centuries Christendom has been sliding into apostasy. For 700 years, with noble interruptions like the Counter-Reformation, the reality of Catholicism has been slowly eaten away by the cancerous fantasy of liberalism, which is the freeing of man from God by the freeing of nature from grace, of mind from objective truth and of will from objective right and wrong. For the longest time, 650 years, the Catholic churchmen clung to and defended reality, but finally enough of the engrossing fantasy of glamorous modernity worked its way into their bones for reality to lose its grip on their minds and wills. Lacking grace, as St Thomas More said of the English bishops in his time betraying the Catholic Church, the Conciliar bishops let men’s fantasy take over from God’s reality, and authority take over from truth. There are practical lessons for clergy and laity alike.

    Colleagues inside and outside the SSPX, to serve God, let us beware of reacting like Giuseppe Siri when we need to be reacting like Giuseppe Sarto, with his magnificent denunciations of the modern errors in Pascendi, Lamentabili and the Letter on the Sillon. And to obtain the grace we need in this most tremendous crisis of all Church history, we need tremendously to pray.

    Layfolk, if horrors of modern life make you “hunger and thirst after justice”, rejoice if you can that the horrors are keeping you real, and do not doubt that if you persevere in your hunger, you will “have your fill” (Mt.V, 6). Blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and they that mourn, says Our Lord, in the same place. As for the surest protection against your minds and hearts being taken over by the fantasy, pray five, better fifteen, Mysteries a day of Our Lady’s Holy Rosary.

    Kyrie eleison.
     
    © 2012 Richard N. Williamson. All Rights Reserved.


    By comparing Siri to Sarto, I believe a subliminal message is being communicated that Pope Gregory XVII was true Pope until 1989.

    I cannot help but notice that Williamson is not identifying himself as a Church authority. Why does he not refer to himself as a bishop?

     :smoke-pot:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

     

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