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Author Topic: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
« on: February 23, 2020, 11:28:18 AM »
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    • I received this notification from a member of the SAJM, and was edified:

    “In 2017, Monsignor Faure ordered the SAJM to abandon the Novus Ordo Lent forever and observe the Traditional Lent (can. 1250-1254 CIC 1917):

    FAST: every day from Ash Wednesday, except Sundays. Fasting is not suspended on the precept feasts. This year there are two important feasts in Lent: Saint Joseph and the Annunciation. It is possible that someone doubts about fasting on those days. Fasting must be done on these feasts.

    ABSTINENCE: every Friday and Saturday.”*

    It is very encouraging not to hear about how weak we modern men are today, and how therefore we cannot POSSIBLY observe the traditional Lenten rigors of our forefathers.  And it is even more edifying to see the clergy leading by example.

    This rule is only for the members of the SAJM (and SAJM Oblates), but obviously the faithful would benefit tremendously (and please our Lord) by maintaining a traditional Lent.

    Americans are typically weak and excusatory when it comes to penance, and we were the laughing stock of the pre-conciliar world for having received a commutation from full to partial abstinence (while still fasting every day) during Lent, while the rest of the world retained the full rigor of complete abstinence from meat every day.  Consequently, I expect to hear many excuses about how Jansenistic the SAJM is for retaining disciplinary norms traditionally and successfully observed by little old grandmothers, farmers and laborers who completed demanding physical work despite complete fast and abstinence, and  children.

    It goes without saying that there have always been those who had exceptional circuмstances which justified dispensations, then as today.

    But let those traditional Catholics give to our Lord the most they can give to our Lord, who gave everything for us.

    I recall St. Alphonsus reflecting in “Preparation for Death” how in our final hours we would give anything and everything to be able to do one more penance before going to judgment.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 11:50:19 AM »
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    • * Not sure why only Friday and Saturday are specified as days of complete abstinence, whereas I thought all days except Sunday and 1st Class Feasts were days on complete abstinence according to pre-conciliar norms (except in the USA, who by Indult only practiced partial abstinence).
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 01:03:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 23, 2020, 11:28:18 AM
    I received this notification from a member of the SAJM, and was edified:

    “In 2017, Monsignor Faure ordered the SAJM to abandon the Novus Ordo Lent forever and observe the Traditional Lent (can. 1250-1254 CIC 1917):

    FAST: every day from Ash Wednesday, except Sundays. Fasting is not suspended on the precept feasts. This year there are two important feasts in Lent: Saint Joseph and the Annunciation. It is possible that someone doubts about fasting on those days. Fasting must be done on these feasts.

    ABSTINENCE: every Friday and Saturday.”*

    It is very encouraging not to hear about how weak we modern men are today, and how therefore we cannot POSSIBLY observe the traditional Lenten rigors of our forefathers.  And it is even more edifying to see the clergy leading by example.

    This rule is only for the members of the SAJM (and SAJM Oblates), but obviously the faithful would benefit tremendously (and please our Lord) by maintaining a traditional Lent.

    Americans are typically weak and excusatory when it comes to penance, and we were the laughing stock of the pre-conciliar world for having received a commutation from full to partial abstinence (while still fasting every day) during Lent, while the rest of the world retained the full rigor of complete abstinence from meat every day.  Consequently, I expect to hear many excuses about how Jansenistic the SAJM is for retaining disciplinary norms traditionally and successfully observed by little old grandmothers, farmers and laborers who completed demanding physical work despite complete fast and abstinence, and  children.

    It goes without saying that there have always been those who had exceptional circuмstances which justified dispensations, then as today.

    But let those traditional Catholics give to our Lord the most they can give to our Lord, who gave everything for us.

    I recall St. Alphonsus reflecting in “Preparation for Death” how in our final hours we would give anything and everything to be able to do one more penance before going to judgment.
    I want to make sure I understand.  Are you saying that before V2, Catholics throughout the world were obliged to abstain from meat totally during Lent (I assume Sunday would be an exception, was it?), and the US only had daily fasting with partial abstinence by indult, derogation from the universal law?
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #3 on: February 23, 2020, 01:46:04 PM »
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    • What are the Lenten rules for a 17 year old?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 01:53:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on February 23, 2020, 01:03:23 PM
    I want to make sure I understand.  Are you saying that before V2, Catholics throughout the world were obliged to abstain from meat totally during Lent (I assume Sunday would be an exception, was it?), and the US only had daily fasting with partial abstinence by indult, derogation from the universal law?

    That's what I said/thought, but looks like I was wrong, and the SAJM priest correct:

    "In the early 20th century, Church law prescribed fasting throughout Lent, with abstinence only on Friday and Saturday. Some countries received dispensations: Rome in 1918 allowed the bishops of Ireland to transfer the Saturday obligation to Wednesday;[citation needed] in the United States, abstinence was not required on Saturday. The other weekdays were simply days of "fasting without abstinence."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Catholic_Church#History

    It seems, therefore, that the pre-conciliar differences between the USA and most of the rest of the world, was that Americans did not have to abstain on Saturday.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #5 on: February 23, 2020, 02:34:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 23, 2020, 01:53:11 PM
    That's what I said/thought, but looks like I was wrong, and the SAJM priest correct:

    "In the early 20th century, Church law prescribed fasting throughout Lent, with abstinence only on Friday and Saturday. 
    Be careful getting info from Wikipedia. Based on the editing pattern in that article, I wouldn't trust much on that page that isn't cited.
    I can't say I've looked into detail at the history of these customs in the Roman rite, but I know several clergy, from Spain and Mexico, who said "partial abstinence" was an American thing.
    I can say that the traditional Eastern Catholic Lent includes complete abstinence from meat for about 9 weeks, including Sundays.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #6 on: February 23, 2020, 11:42:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on February 23, 2020, 01:46:04 PM
    What are the Lenten rules for a 17 year old?
    The law of abstinence begins at 14 and the law of fasting begins at 21. 
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 12:28:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 23, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
    * Not sure why only Friday and Saturday are specified as days of complete abstinence, whereas I thought all days except Sunday and 1st Class Feasts were days on complete abstinence according to pre-conciliar norms (except in the USA, who by Indult only practiced partial abstinence).
    The Ecclesiastical dictionary 1900 states the Friday and Saturday abstinence  " was instituted in the first centuries of the Church in honour of the death and burial of Jesus Christ, and to prepare for the Sunday".
    It also indicates abstinence from flesh meat for Lent.
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    Offline Kolar

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 01:53:21 AM »
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    • Children are not supposed to fast during Lent or on other fast days because the Church is a good Mother and knows that they need to eat to grow and wax strong. Thus, children give up things for Lent. They make sacrifices with no candy, sugar, etc.
    Men are supposed to fast. For a long time many men have practiced a child's Lent by giving up beer or cigarettes or something else, in lieu of fasting. This is not correct. Men are supposed to fast during Lent. Men who give up things during Lent instead of fasting have not put away the things of a child. St. Paul, I Corinthians 13, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away the things of a child."
    Fasting is what the Catholic Church wants from us.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 03:15:39 AM »
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    • From the Didache
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

    Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
    But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory forever. Thrice in the day thus pray.

    Of course, this applies throughout the year not just Lent. 

    Lent would be mean extra fasting. I do not believe that in my lifetime in my country, and neither in italy, was there a rule for abstinence from meat for any other days than Fridays in Lent and Ash Wednesday.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 04:12:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on February 23, 2020, 11:42:58 PM
    The law of abstinence begins at 14 and the law of fasting begins at 21.
    For those of us who are traditional, the law of abstinence begins at the age of 7.
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    Offline Benzel

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 05:03:42 AM »
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    • 1917 Code of Canon Law,Titulus XIV, De abstinentia et ieiunio, Can. 1252 § 2:

    "Lex abstinentiae simul et ieiunii servanda est (...) feris sextis et sabbatis Quadragesimae" (...)

    The law of abstinence togeder with fasting must be observed (...) every Friday and Saturday of Lent" (...).





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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 05:22:51 AM »
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    • Interesting. I have gone through 59 Lents, about to go through #60 and was never taught to abstain from meat on Saturday during Lent. This is the first I've heard of doing that. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 08:38:11 AM »
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    • The laws of lent have changed many times, even from 1917 til 1960.  They even changed during the middle ages many times, when Catholics used to eat only 1 meal a day - no snacks or anything else - just 1 meal.  When the monks could not endure this along with their normal manual labor, they introduced the 1 collation in the morning, which is where we get the term "breakfast" because it was a breaking of the fast.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: SAJM Fast & Abstinence in Lent
    « Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 11:11:13 PM »
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    • Many years ago Dad went to a military academy. It was there that he was told by representatives of the Church that he had a dispensation from the laws of fasting and abstinence. One weekend he went with a friend of his who was Catholic to visit his home for the weekend. When they arrived at his friends house his friend informed his mother of the dispensation from this discipline of the Church and that they could eat meat on Friday. His friend's mother replied, "NOT IN THIS HOUSE."
         
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