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Author Topic: SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please digest  (Read 4486 times)

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Offline holysoulsacademy

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SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please digest
« on: March 03, 2014, 07:51:44 PM »
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  • A good dear friend of mine who happens to be 3rd Order SSPX was ordered by her superior Fr. Purdy to stay away from Resistance Masses.  
    When she asked about the AFD, she was told that Fr. Pfeiffer and others interpretation were nonsense and ignorant.  
    She was told the AFD was a replica of the Declaration ABL signed.  
    She was told to look up SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM and highlight to him what she disagrees with.  (A totally uncharitable act IMHO - to ask a 75 year old lady who gets confused to study this docuмent)
    Now she is very confused and is compelled to follow Fr. Purdy's advice because he is her superior.
    She keeps repeating "I have to follow him, he is my superior.  I took a vow."

    Although I am certain of my position when it comes to staying with Tradition and no longer supporting the NovusSSPX, she keeps trying to convince me to keep attending.

    Can someone who understands the scope of SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please explain to me, in case she asks me again.


    Offline poche

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    SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please digest
    « Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 02:18:17 AM »
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  • Basically in a nutshell what Sacrosanctum Concilium says is that any priest can say the TLM. He doesn't need permission of his bishop. Any stable group of Catholics (Novus Ordo) can get together and petition the bishop for the TLM and he is required to supply them with a priest to offer the TLM.  


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    « Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 02:22:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Basically in a nutshell what Sacrosanctum Concilium says is that any priest can say the TLM. He doesn't need permission of his bishop. Any stable group of Catholics (Novus Ordo) can get together and petition the bishop for the TLM and he is required to supply them with a priest to offer the TLM.  


    I think you are referring to Summorum Pontificuм.  SC was made in 1962.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 02:23:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Quote from: poche
    Basically in a nutshell what Sacrosanctum Concilium says is that any priest can say the TLM. He doesn't need permission of his bishop. Any stable group of Catholics (Novus Ordo) can get together and petition the bishop for the TLM and he is required to supply them with a priest to offer the TLM.  


    I think you are referring to Summorum Pontificuм.  SC was made in 1962.

    Yes you are right.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 02:30:06 AM »
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  • Sacrosanctum Consilium is the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. It is the docuмent from Vatican II which dealt with the Liturgy.


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    « Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 02:33:22 AM »
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  • Is this the one that promulgated the NO Mass? and the NO Sacraments?

    Could anyone highlight what is disagreeable in this?  So she can tell Fr. Purdy.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 02:48:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Is this the one that promulgated the NO Mass? and the NO Sacraments?

    Could anyone highlight what is disagreeable in this?  So she can tell Fr. Purdy.


    No.

    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 04:44:28 AM »
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  •  :cry: :dancing-banana:
    I always thought joining a third order would help save my soul!  Apparently, the opposite is now true.  Better to stay in the world where the wolves look like wolves and the sheep like sheep.  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 05:35:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Is this the one that promulgated the NO Mass? and the NO Sacraments?

    Could anyone highlight what is disagreeable in this?  So she can tell Fr. Purdy.



    No, Sacrosanctum concilium did not "promulgate" the NovusOrdo anything.  

    Nothing in Vatican II was ever promulgated, nor was the NovusOrdo Missae ever promulgated.  They were given the APPEARANCE of being promulgated, with none of the substance of promulgation.

    Quo Primum was promulgated.  Pascendi domenici gregis was promulgated.  The definition of the Assumption body and soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven was promulgated.  But the NovusOrdo Missae was never promulgated.  Its dissemination was all smoke and mirrors, but too many were deceived insomuch as it were possible (cf. Matt. xxiv. 24).  

    Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    A good dear friend of mine who happens to be 3rd Order SSPX was ordered by her superior Fr. Purdy to stay away from Resistance Masses.  When she asked about the AFD, she was told that Fr. Pfeiffer and others interpretation were nonsense and ignorant.  She was told the AFD was a replica of the Declaration ABL signed.  She was told to look up SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM and highlight to him what she disagrees with.  (A totally uncharitable act IMHO - to ask a 75 year old lady who gets confused to study this docuмent)

    Now she is very confused and is compelled to follow Fr. Purdy's advice because he is her superior.  She keeps repeating "I have to follow him, he is my superior.  I took a vow."

    Although I am certain of my position when it comes to staying with Tradition and no longer supporting the NovusSSPX, she keeps trying to convince me to keep attending.

    Can someone who understands the scope of SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please explain to me, in case she asks me again.


    Tell your elderly friend that there are NUMEROUS problems with Sacrosanctum concilium.  

    Tell her that is the Rosetta Stone of the modern heresy of false collegiality.  

    All throughout the subsequent docuмents (SC was among the very first Vat.II docs. to be approved and it opened the doors to many subsequent problematic docuмents), whenever any kind of basis for why a bishop in the world would need some reference for his making some kind of novelty approved and later to become the norm in his diocese, SC 22.2 was quoted as the reference, most often found in a footnote attached to the particular sentence or paragraph.

    There are about 30 references to SC 22.2, all of which give a NEW POWER to one or more bishops by which they would later proceed to tear out communion rails, turn altars around, face the congregations with their backs to the tabernacle, remove the tabernacles from the centers of our altars, introduce various and sundry changes to the way the Mass is conducted, remodel sanctuaries, rip out confessionals, change the words of the Angelus and/or the bell ringing that called for the Angelus 3 times a day, tolerate intercommunion with protestants, distribute Communion in the hand, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum.

    There is literally NO END to the errors and abuses that were and will continue to be consequent to the bad principle laid down in SC 22.2, even though it was never promulgated.  

    SC 22.2 is arguably the worst part of the docuмent but there are MANY MORE BAD PARTS to be found in it.  For any honest priest to tell an innocent and inquisitive lady to "study SC" is an act of infidelity and DECEPTION.  Fr. Purdy will be answerable in eternity for such a despicable act as this.  For him to do so under the pretext of religious authority as her 3rd Order superior, is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance, as it is the oppression of the poor.


    Any more questions?  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 05:47:40 AM »
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  • .

    P.S.,    Happy Fat Tuesday!


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    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 06:08:24 AM »
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  •  :really-mad2: :dancing-banana:
    SC is exactly what Neil says it is.  That any SSPX priest supports it is nearly unbelievable.  To use it as a weapon to threaten an elderly woman is beyond my comprehension.  It speaks badly for any priest who obviously fears a 75 year old, that he has to threaten her!
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline stgobnait

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    « Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 07:13:55 AM »
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  • In Truth.. it is the Resistance, they fear...

    Offline B from A

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    « Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 07:26:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    A good dear friend of mine who happens to be 3rd Order SSPX was ordered by her superior Fr. Purdy to stay away from Resistance Masses.  
    When she asked about the AFD, she was told that Fr. Pfeiffer and others interpretation were nonsense and ignorant.  
    She was told the AFD was a replica of the Declaration ABL signed.


    Wrong.  It is not.  There are substantial differences.  You might want to point these out to her.

    Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    She was told to look up SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM and highlight to him what she disagrees with.  
    Can someone who understands the scope of SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM please explain to me, in case she asks me again.


    Ask her (and/or ask her to ask him) what in the world does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  

    Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Now she is very confused and is compelled to follow Fr. Purdy's advice because he is her superior.
    She keeps repeating "I have to follow him, he is my superior.  I took a vow."


    Third Order members do not take "a vow".  They are promises that do not even oblige under pain of sin.  Ask her where in the Third Order Rule it says anything about vows or "obedience" to SSPX priests.

    More  on the differences between the AFD & 1988 protocol coming...

    Offline B from A

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    « Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 07:27:07 AM »
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  • Quote from:  B from A
    Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    A good dear friend of mine who happens to be 3rd Order SSPX was ordered by her superior Fr. Purdy to stay away from Resistance Masses.  
    When she asked about the AFD, she was told that Fr. Pfeiffer and others interpretation were nonsense and ignorant.  
    She was told the AFD was a replica of the Declaration ABL signed.


    Wrong.  It is not.  There are substantial differences.  You might want to point these out to her.

    ...More  on the differences between the AFD & 1988 protocol coming...



    Quote from: Machabees
    A very good comparison from TheRecusant.com

    http://www.therecusant.com/apps/blog/

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    In May 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre, under pressure from some of his priests (Fr. Schmidberger?), signed an agreement with Rome. He immediately regretted it and withdrew his signature the following day. He would later write regarding the 1988 Protocol: “Had I signed the agreement we would have been finished in one year.”

    The reader may wish to compare the text of the 1988 Protocol, which Rome proposed to the Archbishop, with the text of the 2012 'Preamble' which Bishop Fellay proposed to Rome. The similarities are, to say the least, striking.

    The text of the 1988 Protocol, together with an article by Fr. Peter Scott, can be read at this link:

    http://www.therecusant.com/abplefebvre-1988-protocol

    ===============================================

    Quote
    Protocol of Accord
     
    Proposed by Rome to Archbishop Lefebvre
     (1988)


    I, Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus of Tulle, as well as the members of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X founded by me:

        1. Promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff, its Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Blessed Peter in his primacy as head of the body of bishops.

        2. We declare our acceptance of the doctrine contained in n.25 of the dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of Vatican Council II on the ecclesiastical Magisterium and the adherence which is due to it.

        3. Regarding certain points taught by Vatican Council II or concerning later reforms of the liturgy and law, and which do not appear to us easily reconcilable with Tradition, we pledge that we will have a positive attitude of study and communication with the Apostolic See, avoiding all polemics.

        4. Moreover we declare that we recognise the validity of the Sacrifice fo the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

        5. Finally, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and the ecclesiastical laws, especially those contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope John Paul II, without prejudice to the special discipline granted to the Society by particular law.



    ================================================

    Now for Bishop Fellay's 2012 Preamble:


    Quote
    Bishop Fellay's 2012 Preamble

    Presented to Rome
    15th April, 2012


    Translated from the text on La Sapiniere.

    I
    We promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and to the Roman Pontiff, the Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Peter, and head of the body of bishops.


    II
    We declare that we accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church in the substance of Faith and Morals, adhering to each doctrinal affirmation in the required degree, according to the doctrine contained in No.25 of the dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium of the Second Vatican Council.(1)


    III

         1. We declare that we accept the doctrine regarding the Roman Pontiff and regarding the college of bishops, with the Pope as its head, which is taught by the dogmatic constitution Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I and by the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, chapter 3 (de constitutione hierarchica Ecclesiae et in specie de episcopatu), explained and interpreted by the nota explicativa praevia in this same chapter.

         2. We recognise the authority of the Magisterium to which alone is given the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, in written form or handed down (2) in fidelity to Tradition, recalling that "the Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter in order for them to make known, through revelation, a new doctrine, but so that with His assistance they may keep in a holy and expressly faithful manner the revelation transmitted by the Apostles, that is to say, the Faith."(3)

         3. Tradition is the living transmission of revelation "usque as nos"(4) and the Church in its doctrine, in its life and in its liturgy perpetuates and transmits to all generations what this is and what She believes. Tradition progresses in the Church with the assistance of the Holy Ghost(5), not as a contrary novelty(6), but through a better understanding of the Deposit of the Faith(7).

         4. The entire tradition of Catholic Faith must be the criterion and guide in understanding the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which, in turn, enlightens - in other words deepens and subsequently makes explicit -  certain aspects of the life and doctrine of the Church implicitly present within itself or not yet conceptually formulated(8).

         5. The affirmations of the Second Vatican Council and of the later Pontifical Magisterium relating to the relationship between the Church and the non-Catholic Christian confessions, as well as the social duty of religion and the right to religious liberty, whose formulation is with difficulty reconcilable with prior doctrinal affirmations from the Magisterium, must be understood in the light of the whole, uninterrupted Tradition, in a manner coherent with the truths previously taught by the Magisterium of the Church, without accepting any interpretation of these affirmations whatsoever that would expose Catholic doctrine to opposition or rupture with Tradition and with this Magisterium.

         6. That is why it is legitimate to promote through legitimate discussion the study and theological explanations of the expressions and formulations of Vatican II and of the Magisterium which followed it, in the case where they don't appear reconcilable with the previous Magisterium of the Church(9).

          7. We declare that we recognise the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.

         8. In following the guidelines laid out above (III,5), as well as Canon 21 of the Code of Canon Law, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and the ecclesiastical laws, especially those which are contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by John-Paul II (1983) and in the Code of Canon Law of the Oriental Churches promulgated by the same pontiff (1990), without prejudice to the discipline of the Society of Saint Pius X, by a special law.


    Notes--
    (1) Cf. the new formula for the Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity for assuming a charge exercised in the name of the Church, 1989; cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 749,750, §2; 752; CCEO canon 597; 598, 1 & 2; 599.

    (2) Cf. Pius XII, Humani Generis encyclical.

    (3) Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution, Pastor Aeternus, Dz. 3070.

    (4) Council of Trent, Dz. 1501: “All saving truth and rules of conduct (Matt. 16:15) are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.”

    (5) Cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum, 8 & 9, Denz. 4209-4210.

    (6) Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Filius, Dz. 3020: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding "Therefore […] let the understanding, the knowledge, and wisdom of individuals as of all, of one man as of the whole Church, grow and progress strongly with the passage of the ages and the centuries; but let it be solely in its own genus, namely in the same dogma, with the same sense and the same understanding.'' [Vincent of Lerins, Commonitorium, 23, 3].”

    (7) Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Filius, Dz. 3011; Anti-modernist Oath, no. 4; Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Humani Generis, Dz 3886; Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum, 10, Dz. 4213.

    (8) For example, like the teaching on the sacraments and the episcopacy in Lumen Gentium, no. 21.

    (9) There is a parallel in history in the Decree for the Armenians of the Council of Florence, where the porrection of the instruments was indicated as the matter of the sacrament of Order. Nevertheless theologians legitimately discussed, even after this decree, the accuracy of such an assertion. Pope Pius XII finally resolved the issue in another way.


    Offline B from A

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    « Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 07:30:16 AM »
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  • Quote from:  B from A
    It is hard to do a line-by-line comparison, because there are so many more lines in the 2012 DD, but let's give it a try.  First, I'll do the ones that match up a bit more easily:

    Quote from: 1988 Protocol
    I, Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus of Tulle, as well as the members of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X founded by me:

    a)   Promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff, its Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Blessed Peter in his primacy as head of the body of bishops.

    Quote from: 2012 AFD
    I  
    We promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and to the Roman Pontiff, the Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Peter, and head of the body of bishops.