Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on November 27, 2015, 05:17:00 PM
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Want to help me confirm or debunk a rumor?
I know I don't normally post or ask for rumors on CathInfo, but I'll make an exception this once. Just to be clear: I'm distinguishing this from just about everything else in this subforum, which is substantiated fact and first-hand report.
In other words, when it's a rumor, don't worry: I'll call it a rumor.
There is a persistent rumor coming out of Ireland and Scotland that:
"there's a meeting just now, or soon, in Canada with Frs. Schmidberger, Pfluger and the Society of St. Peter to work out the merger of both groups. If true, they have kept it very quiet."
1. This is a rumor
2. It's pretty fantastical
So does anyone know if this can be A) substantiated or B) proven false? Or is it one of those rumors that conveniently can't be proven one way or the other?
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I know I don't normally post or ask for rumors on CathInfo, but I'll make an exception this once. Just to be clear: I'm distinguishing this from just about everything else in this subforum, which is substantiated fact and first-hand report.
In other words, when it's a rumor, don't worry: I'll call it a rumor.
There is a persistent rumor coming out of Ireland and Scotland that:
"there's a meeting just now, or soon, in Canada with Frs. Schmidberger, Pfluger and the Society of St. Peter to work out the merger of both groups. If true, they have kept it very quiet."
1. This is a rumor
2. It's pretty fantastical
So does anyone know if this can be A) substantiated or B) proven false? Or is it one of those rumors that conveniently can't be proven one way or the other?
Considering it is already solidly known that the SSPX is heading towards a sort of merger with Rome to become like the Society of St. Peter, I see nothing wrong with presenting a "rumor" that they would actually merge with that society. It doesn't even really have to be a rumor because one could legitimately give that a raw speculation.
Considering what is already known, I don't consider the rumor fantastical.
Additionally, I would expect something like this as being likely, considering the SSPX just built a VERY expensive seminary in Virginia and they wouldn't have done so unless they were sure they would be able to fill it....which is coming up next year.
It all fits together.
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I have nothing to offer to substantiate or prove it false but it does sound fantastical. A move like that would wake up waayy too many people. They've invested so much time convincing everyone that nothing has changed, this would fly in the face of all that work and the strategy of the slow boil.
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Obviously, it can't be proven false. Even if Frs. Schmidberger and Pfluger can be proven not to be in Canada, "soon" is in the future and, by its very nature, future events cannot be proven false.
If it is true, it will be proven true when the announcement is made that the two groups are merging in some manner. What do think the name of the (rumored) merged organization would be? Would it be:
1. Society of St. Pius X (SSPX).
2. Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP).
3. Society of the Priestly Fraternity of Sts. Peter and Pius X (SPFSPPX).
4. Ecclesia Dei Society of St. John Paul II (EDSSJP2-We Luv You).
I vote for rumored name #4.
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I have nothing to offer to substantiate or prove it false but it does sound fantastical. A move like that would wake up waayy too many people. They've invested so much time convincing everyone that nothing has changed, this would fly in the face of all that work and the strategy of the slow boil.
The time they've invested to convince everyone that nothing has changed seems to have been working okay, and even while it should be obvious there has been change the gullible minions still believe that nothing has changed.
The slow boil is working and now the frog is ready for the frog legs. Bon appetit!
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Who sent you this information?
Where did that person get his info from?
What led him to believe that what he was told was true?
Why did this rumor come out of Scotland and Ireland?
Why are Frs. Schmidberge and Pfluger meeting in Canada? Wouldn't Europe be a more fitting place? I don't think the FSSP has much of a presence in Canada.
This only serves to confuse matters and disturb people's emotions.
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I know I don't normally post or ask for rumors on CathInfo, but I'll make an exception this once. Just to be clear: I'm distinguishing this from just about everything else in this subforum, which is substantiated fact and first-hand report.
In other words, when it's a rumor, don't worry: I'll call it a rumor.
There is a persistent rumor coming out of Ireland and Scotland that:
"there's a meeting just now, or soon, in Canada with Frs. Schmidberger, Pfluger and the Society of St. Peter to work out the merger of both groups. If true, they have kept it very quiet."
1. This is a rumor
2. It's pretty fantastical
So does anyone know if this can be A) substantiated or B) proven false? Or is it one of those rumors that conveniently can't be proven one way or the other?
Considering it is already solidly known that the SSPX is heading towards a sort of merger with Rome to become like the Society of St. Peter, I see nothing wrong with presenting a "rumor" that they would actually merge with that society. It doesn't even really have to be a rumor because one could legitimately give that a raw speculation.
Considering what is already known, I don't consider the rumor fantastical.
Additionally, I would expect something like this as being likely, considering the SSPX just built a VERY expensive seminary in Virginia and they wouldn't have done so unless they were sure they would be able to fill it....which is coming up next year.
It all fits together.
My though. It's logical. The FSSP needs a bishop. Priestly formation equal. The SSPX has the seminary. The FSSP help financially to finish its construction. +Fellay volunteer +de Galarreta to step aside. +Tessier joins +W&F. :popcorn:
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Last week a friend from Saint Mary's,KS told me that on the grounds there was held a fund raiser with the local KofC and SSPX collecting $$ for St. Peter Soc; said that's how it was announced. Don't know anymore.
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I know I don't normally post or ask for rumors on CathInfo, but I'll make an exception this once. Just to be clear: I'm distinguishing this from just about everything else in this subforum, which is substantiated fact and first-hand report.
In other words, when it's a rumor, don't worry: I'll call it a rumor.
There is a persistent rumor coming out of Ireland and Scotland that:
"there's a meeting just now, or soon, in Canada with Frs. Schmidberger, Pfluger and the Society of St. Peter to work out the merger of both groups. If true, they have kept it very quiet."
1. This is a rumor
2. It's pretty fantastical
So does anyone know if this can be A) substantiated or B) proven false? Or is it one of those rumors that conveniently can't be proven one way or the other?
Considering it is already solidly known that the SSPX is heading towards a sort of merger with Rome to become like the Society of St. Peter, I see nothing wrong with presenting a "rumor" that they would actually merge with that society. It doesn't even really have to be a rumor because one could legitimately give that a raw speculation.
Considering what is already known, I don't consider the rumor fantastical.
Additionally, I would expect something like this as being likely, considering the SSPX just built a VERY expensive seminary in Virginia and they wouldn't have done so unless they were sure they would be able to fill it....which is coming up next year.
It all fits together.
My though. It's logical. The FSSP needs a bishop. Priestly formation equal. The SSPX has the seminary. The FSSP help financially to finish its construction. +Fellay volunteer +de Galarreta to step aside. +Tessier joins +W&F. :popcorn:
Okay, what is the point of this thread?
Let's stick to facts. The problems are already tangible. There is no need to fan the flames. I accuse myself of relishing in certain rumors. Nevertheless, I suppose it is part of our fallen human nature to wish to revel in the rumor mill.
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Remember that the FSSP was founded in 1988 by a dozen or so priests of the SSPX, led by Fr. Bisig, who didn't want to accept the consecrations of 4 bishops by Abp Lefebvre, as they thought it would lead to a schism, and they feared the whole SSPX would be excommunicated. They thought the protocol of May 1988 was good enough.
Now, it is very possible that Rome has "lowered" the level of their conditions to an agreement with the SSPX, compared to those presented to +Fellay on June 13 2012. Then the main condition was an outright full acceptance of Vatican II and the actual magisterium.
Maybe now Rome is agreeing with +Fellay who said the "problems" the SSPX has with VII could be discussed and resolved AFTER an agreement. Maybe Rome is also saying: If we recognize the SSPX and give it a status of personal prelature, thus having the SSPX going BACK to Rome, then FSSP should go BACK to the SSPX.
Rome would present this as a practical consequence of an agreement with SSPX because, basically, the FSSP has houses that are always in the same locations than the SSPX. So why have two official and recognized traditional Societies in the same towns? It would be a waste of manpower! Therefore, Rome is saying: Let us merge both Societies, and go back to the situation before June 30, 1988, and have ONE big happy family. The merger would also allow the new Society to sell properties where FSSP and SSPX used to have one each, and use the money to open houses where there was nobody before. This would expand the presence of Tradition in the whole world.
I can very well see +Fellay fall for these arguments. As for FSSP, it might be a bit more difficult to swallow, but they will have the prospect of having their priests ordained by surely validly consecrated bishops. Moreover, maybe Rome will even propose that the FSSP superior would be consecrated by the 3 SSPX bishops, so as to replace +Williamson. With the worlwide expansion caused by the merger, four bishops would not be too great a number to satisfy the needs of the faithful.
With these reasons and proposals, it is possible Rome will succeed to obtain the merger, especially if she makes it the only condition to an agreement with SSPX. If the SSPX accepts the idea of such a merger, Rome could go to FSSP and threaten them with suppression if they don't agree. Rome would say: How dare you put an obstacle to such an agreement with SSPX? How dare you refuse to help heal and close the wound opened in 1988? Besides, the reason you had to leave the SSPX in 1988 does not exist anymore, you have to go back to it!
In other words, even if the rumor is false, this scenario is very plausible, and even probable. Come to think about it, I think this scenario will HAVE TO HAPPEN if the SSPX accepts an agreement with Rome.
And the result of such a merger will of course be a catastrophe for Tradition! Indeed, the conservative elements still belonging to the SSPX would be swamped by all those priests and seminarians and faithful who have been steeped in liberalism since 1988!
Very quickly, with the new assignments that would follow the merger, the SSPX faithful would lose track of many of the priests, and they will never be sure if this or that priest they never saw before is originally from the SSPX or the FSSP. I doubt the former FSSP priests would accept to be conditionally re-ordained. Hence: A big problem!
The advantage of a merger for +Fellay, besides a financial gain coming from the sale of useless properties, would be that the arrival of so many FSSP priests and seminarians and faithful would more than offset the number of those leaving the SSPX to join the "Resistance".
The more I think about it, the more this scenario looks like the thing Rome and +Fellay would want to do, and FSSP would not have much of a choice. They surely would not want to become "vagi" and without jurisdiction and all that...
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I have heard so many rumors and most of them weren't true yet so I will read this and hope it is not true like mosdt of the rumors.
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Rumours usually start with a grain of truth.
That being said, it sounds perfectly logical if the SSPX goes with Rome that the SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter would be combined under a new title and put under the Diocesan bishops, (just like the Transalpine Redemptorists).
A personal prelature is only a dream. The NO bishops wouldn't have it.
In Canada the two Fraternities already are located close to each other in the diocese with one having a church and the other perhaps sharing space with N.O. parish.
The SSPX and the Fraternity have been friendly for the past year or so, so I think it's a probability if the SSPX goes with Rome.
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This scenario would certainly overcome the problem which is supposedly holding up an agreement that of the relationship of the SSPX with the diocesan bishop. The SSP is already established so if they join up or work together then there is no longer an issue.
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This would not be surprising. I was told the same thing by a district superior of the SSPX in 2001 when there was also a plan for merger in the air. The district superior had just been told this by Bishop Fellay. Fellay apparently had been speaking with the Romans about a deal. One thing that was emphasized was that Rome would not make a deal with the SSPX unless ALL the bishops of the SSPX "came in" to the Conciliar Church --- this seemed like, at the time, as the MAJOR stumbling block to an accord. The deal was portrayed as a universal traditional personal prelature. When bishop Fellay asked the Romans --- I think it was Cardinal Hoyos -- "What will happen then to the Fraternity of St. Peter?" Cardinal Hoyos said, "They will be under YOU!"
I can assure you that this actually happened. Now there is certainly less opposition in the SSPX to it then there was in 2001.
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Augustine,
Personally, I don’t doubt what you are saying. Bishop Fellay has been so dishonest and secretive with his own (trusting) faithful while the Rorate Caeli crowd of which you are part, always seem to know what treason is going on behind the scenes.
I also do not doubt for a moment that Rome would want a deal without ALL three remaining bishops. They must muzzle them all. The last thing they would want is more bishops added to help the traditional movement. They must be kicking themselves about +Faure being consecrated. Had they known about the consecration before they did, they would have wrecked havoc to prevent it. Thank God for the Prudence with which the event was handled. Blessed be God for +Faure and Williamson!
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Augustine,
I also do not doubt for a moment that Rome would want a deal without ALL three remaining bishops. They must muzzle them all. The last thing they would want is more bishops added to help the traditional movement.
Bishop Fellay would never accept a deal unless HE remained a Bishop; the other two might be collateral damage.
Lately I've been hearing the SSPX called the Secret Society of Pius X
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This would not be surprising. I was told the same thing by a district superior of the SSPX in 2001 when there was also a plan for merger in the air. The district superior had just been told this by Bishop Fellay. Fellay apparently had been speaking with the Romans about a deal. One thing that was emphasized was that Rome would not make a deal with the SSPX unless ALL the bishops of the SSPX "came in" to the Conciliar Church --- this seemed like, at the time, as the MAJOR stumbling block to an accord. The deal was portrayed as a universal traditional personal prelature. When bishop Fellay asked the Romans --- I think it was Cardinal Hoyos -- "What will happen then to the Fraternity of St. Peter?" Cardinal Hoyos said, "They will be under YOU!"
I can assure you that this actually happened. Now there is certainly less opposition in the SSPX to it then there was in 2001.
Matthew et al,
As far as I'm concerned, the merger is no longer a rumor. Augustine has confirmed it in the post above. He is a RC insider with deep ties to the FSSP. Perhaps part of GREC or with ties to it. He has also proven +Fellay a traitor and a liar.
The merger must be the last details to be cleared before the signing of the last agreement.
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My experience with Rorate Synagogae is that they are a nest of self-righteous Judaizers, especially Mathisen. I trust neither their motives nor their content.
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I don't know them personally. I'm familiar with the names only. I agree with you but they have their reliable sources. They usually know more about +Fellay than the SSPX knows. They broke the news about SP, the Argentinean deal, in the fiasco in June 2012 they had regular updates...
They have informers in Rome and SSPX.
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So the priests of the SSPX are ready to say the NO? Because that's what FSSP have to do, both the NO mess and the "EF"
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I doubt that there is any sort of merger planned, if the new District Superior of the FSSP has anything to do with it, since he held very anti-SSPX views six years ago (thinking that they were a cult). He never preached these views openly, but told them to an SSPX chapel attender that I knew back then, who attended a few FSSP Masses, and had a few long conversations with him after Mass. Maybe he has since then relaxed his views of the SSPX. I doubt it though.
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I doubt that there is any sort of merger planned, if the new District Superior of the FSSP has anything to do with it, since he held very anti-SSPX views six years ago (thinking that they were a cult). He never preached these views openly, but told them to an SSPX chapel attender that I knew back then, who attended a few FSSP Masses, and had a few long conversations with him after Mass. Maybe he has since then relaxed his views of the SSPX. I doubt it though.
I should have clarified that it's the American (all of North America, including Canada, I think) FSSP District Superior that I'm referring to above.
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Also, in 2012, Bishop Fellay certainly expected a deal to be made in June. It was the Vatican that effectively pulled away the deal. This shocked Bishop Fellay so he called Fr. Ramon Angles to find out what happened to the expected deal, which he thought was a done deal. Apparently, Jєωιѕн organizations went to the German government and the German government threatened to cut off diplomatic relations with the Vatican if the SSPX should be admitted into the Conciliar Church. Why things would be different this time since Angela Merkel is still chancellor is unknown to me.
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Hey Meg,
Keep in mind, six years ago many SSPX Priests warned not to attend FSSP Masses. Now all you hear in this regard are crickets. What a difference a day makes.
I'm not one to comment on rumors, but can you imagine FSSP priests praying at the Tomb of ABL?? I can only guess that they would pray that God have mercy on his soulv for creating such a schism while SSPX priests are praying for his guidance and possible canonization.
Can the two groups REALLY share the same table?
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Also, in 2012, Bishop Fellay certainly expected a deal to be made in June. It was the Vatican that effectively pulled away the deal. This shocked Bishop Fellay so he called Fr. Ramon Angles to find out what happened to the expected deal, which he thought was a done deal. Apparently, Jєωιѕн organizations went to the German government and the German government threatened to cut off diplomatic relations with the Vatican if the SSPX should be admitted into the Conciliar Church. Why things would be different this time since Angela Merkel is still chancellor is unknown to me.
Since the SSPX has expunged their websites, committed a type of fratricide against the truth-telling bishop, and has allegedly given a Zionist signature authority over SSPX assets, a naive person would think that such abject submission would be enough—BUT that is not the way of the ѕуηαgσgυє.
Can you imagine any amount of groveling that Mel Gibson could do to get back in favor with H✡llyw✡✡d?
No amount of groveling could get the SSPX in favor with the ѕуηαgσgυє and that underscores the foolishness of Bp. Fellay for submitting and doing the ѕуηαgσgυє's bidding in the first place. He should have known that "forgiveness" and "reconciliation" are impossible for the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.
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Since it would be of absolutely NO benefit to either the SSPX or the FSSP and considering the remaining bad blood between the two organizations, it is about as far fetched a rumor as Pope Benedict sacrificing a baby at a Black Mass.
I would believe that some FSSP priests may want to jump ship and join the SSPX but I would bet that their superiors would nix it out of hand.
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Want to help me confirm or debunk a rumor?
I know I don't normally post or ask for rumors on CathInfo, but I'll make an exception this once. Just to be clear: I'm distinguishing this from just about everything else in this subforum, which is substantiated fact and first-hand report.
In other words, when it's a rumor, don't worry: I'll call it a rumor.
There is a persistent rumor coming out of Ireland and Scotland that:
"there's a meeting just now, or soon, in Canada with Frs. Schmidberger, Pfluger and the Society of St. Peter to work out the merger of both groups. If true, they have kept it very quiet."
1. This is a rumor
2. It's pretty fantastical
So does anyone know if this can be A) substantiated or B) proven false? Or is it one of those rumors that conveniently can't be proven one way or the other?
I doubt that it is more than a rumor. After all, in the event of a merger, who will be in charge?
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The One with the highest profile?
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In the event of a reintegration with Rome, the SSPX and the FSSP will most likely NOT merge. At this point, it is obvious, even in these times, the FSSP and the SSPX clearly have a different charism. Msgr. Berg has made it clear that the role of the FSSP and its vocation is the mass and only the mass. As a reusult, since the tenure of Msgr. Berg, the FSSP has been actively involved in training Novus Ordo priests to say the Tridentine Mass. They have completely washed away their original vocation and original goal and have now become, for the most part, a training group for novus ordo priests. Their Seminary holds multiple workshops every year to train Novus Ordo priests. The SSPX, on the other hand, has never done such apostalate. Unification of the two groups is almost impossible. It's almost like saying that, if the SSPX gains a place in Rome, all the traditionalist groups will de facto fall under the SSPX unbrella, like Bon Pasteur, ICRSP, etc. They each have their unique charism and I doubt the SSPX will be much receptive to them.
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In the event of a reintegration with Rome, the SSPX and the FSSP will most likely NOT merge. At this point, it is obvious, even in these times, the FSSP and the SSPX clearly have a different charism. Msgr. Berg has made it clear that the role of the FSSP and its vocation is the mass and only the mass. As a reusult, since the tenure of Msgr. Berg, the FSSP has been actively involved in training Novus Ordo priests to say the Tridentine Mass. They have completely washed away their original vocation and original goal and have now become, for the most part, a training group for novus ordo priests. Their Seminary holds multiple workshops every year to train Novus Ordo priests. The SSPX, on the other hand, has never done such apostalate. Unification of the two groups is almost impossible. It's almost like saying that, if the SSPX gains a place in Rome, all the traditionalist groups will de facto fall under the SSPX unbrella, like Bon Pasteur, ICRSP, etc. They each have their unique charism and I doubt the SSPX will be much receptive to them.
As of this year, the FSSP has a new district superior, Fr. Saguto.
Also the SSPX does train Novus Ordo priests and they have been doing that for over 10 years. It takes place at the old Regina Coeli House in Kansas City. There is a collection taken up every year for this apostolate.
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Also the SSPX does train Novus Ordo priests and they have been doing that for over 10 years. It takes place at the old Regina Coeli House in Kansas City. There is a collection taken up every year for this apostolate.
I thought I remembered something about this, but I couldn't say this for sure. Thanks. for the updated information.
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Actually it would appear that all the district superiors for the FSSP changed this year.
From the General House in Fribourg comes the following announcement, dated April 26, 2015:
“Given that the terms of the three District Superiors will come to a close this coming July, Fr. John Berg, Superior General FSSP, following a vote by his General Council held in Fribourg on April 24, has nominated:
Fr. Bernhard Gerstle as Superior of the Germanophone District beginning on July 13, 2015
for three years.
Fr. Benoît Paul-Joseph as Superior of the French District beginning on July 13, 2015 for three
years.
Fr. Gerard Saguto as Superior of the North American District beginning on July 13, 2015 for three years.
On behalf of all of the members of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, the Superior General and his Council would like to express their profound gratitude to Fr. Axel Maussen, Germanophone District Superior since 2003, Fr. Vincent Ribeton, French District Superior since 2006, and Fr. Eric Flood, North American District Superior since 2008.
http://fssp.com/press/2015/04/fssp-communique-nomination-of-district-superiors/
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I don't think an SSPX-FSSP merger is likely. First obstacle is Pope Francis. The things he says get odder and odder. I used to think him a cunning Modernist, but while he was politician enough to become Conciliar Pope, his monologues are of a man with failing mental processes. The second obstacle is related in that people who see a hasty reconciliation with Conciliar Rome and then to a priestly society long loyal to Conciliar Rome, will just exit. They might go to SSPX-MC or SSPV (not sure if they are Sede) or another priestly society, perhaps even a Sede society. The third obstacle is there are two priestly societies who have in the time of their existence taken their own direction, even if they have a common ancestry.
I just think it unlikely, but Matthew has his sources. We will see.