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Author Topic: Rule Violator #2: JPaul  (Read 20977 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2018, 04:19:54 PM »
You mean like many of the Protestant baptism rites....which the Church recognizes as valid?

SOME are recognized as valid.  It has to do with the context and understanding of what the Prots claim to be doing with the Rite.  Yet the Church routinely administers conditional Baptism on Prot converts, since they're not quite as sure as you are about it.  I certainly wouldn't stake my eternal salvation on a Lutheran Baptism, nor a Novus Ordo one for that matter.

Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2018, 04:23:35 PM »
From Sean....

Quote
2) Doubt exists because of the impossibility of ascertaining the satisfaction of the 4 elements necessary for a valid sacrament.

See this article from Fr. Peter Scott in 2007, which expresses my opinion EXACTLY:

http://sspx.org/en/must-priests-who-come-tradition-be-re-ordained


and he continues two pages later...........

Quote
Is that last (bolded) line sinking in?

It directly contradicts Fr. Scott (who worries that the new priests, not knowing whether they are celebrating a sacrifice or a meal, may not have the right intention)......

Fr. Scott's position seems very close to forming the same "negative doubt" he previously stated was inadmissible ("I wonder if the priest has the proper intention?  After all, we can no longer deduce it by external utterances.).  According to Billot, that concern is completely beside the point.


And to recall the Archbishop:

Quote
These young priests will not have the intention of doing that which the Church does, for they will not have been taught that the Mass is a true sacrifice. They will not have the intention of offering a sacrifice. They will have the intention of celebrating a Eucharist, a sharing, a communion, a memorial, all of which has nothing to do with faith in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Hence from this moment, inasmuch as these deformed priests no longer have the intention of doing what the Church does, their Masses will obviously be more and more invalid."

So which is it Sean? Do you agree with Fr. Scott or not? Do you disagree with the Archbishop? You are entitled to disagree with them, but I would prefer that you be honest about it if you do.

Here is what Fr. Scott says on  a negative doubt

 "A negative doubt is a doubt that is not based upon any reason"

But what you're missing here Sean is that THERE IS A REASON to doubt the INTENTION TO DO WHAT THE CHURCH DOES.


Offline trad123

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2018, 04:23:39 PM »
It seems erroneous to label such rites as Protestant, rather than to say Protestant's using a Catholic rite.

Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2018, 04:32:30 PM »
Just some more on what doubt is... From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

"Doubt is either positive or negative. In the former case, the evidence for and against is so equally balanced as to render decision impossible; in the latter, the doubt arises from the absence of sufficient evidence on either side."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05141a.htm

In our case it is the doubt that the priest intends to do what the Church intends. NOT his faith.

It is not a negative doubt, because there is good reason, as explained by the Archbishop to doubt that they are doing what the Church does.

Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2018, 06:02:02 PM »
You mean like many of the Protestant baptism rites....which the Church recognizes as valid?
You mean like all of the protestant (non-catholic) 'rites'...which the Church places as INVALID which is why the Church does conditional EVERYTHING!