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Author Topic: Rule Violator #2: JPaul  (Read 8793 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2018, 09:27:36 AM »
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  • The point I think that would be made is that considering the Mass only a meal and not a sacrifice, constitutes a postive doubt. It is deliberately going against what the Church does.

    If one had no opinion either way, then you might be right.

    No, it most certainly does NOT, and the Fortesque quote I supplied a few posts earlier clearly states that to hold such an opinion is heretical.

    The faith of the minister (or lack thereof) is completely irrelevant.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #76 on: June 09, 2018, 09:28:46 AM »
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  • Flats-

    You are mixing and mashing ideas:

    What has always been the opinion of Tradition is that conciliar converts ought to be conditionally ordained.

    But the reason for that is not because the sacraments are all per se doubtful (i.e., objectively and in themselves invalid).

    The reason is because either:

    1) There is positive doubt regarding one off the 4 elements necessary for a valid sacrament;

    0r

    2) Doubt exists because of the impossibility of ascertaining the satisfaction of the 4 elements necessary for a valid sacrament.

    See this article from Fr. Peter Scott in 2007, which expresses my opinion EXACTLY:

    http://sspx.org/en/must-priests-who-come-tradition-be-re-ordained


    What are you saying?

    That's exactly what I was talking about.

    You are so puffed up with pride that you presume I am a sede coming here to argue their position. Or more likely off your bipolar meds, if you were even put on them.

    So it's not me who's mashed up at all.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #77 on: June 09, 2018, 09:33:35 AM »
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  • From the link you just gave me....


    "If it cannot be said, as with Anglican orders, that the Novus Ordo rite was changed with the manifest intention of rejecting a sacrificing priesthood, nevertheless the deliberate exclusion of the notion of propitiation, in order to please Protestants, could easily be considered as casting a doubt on the intention of doing what the Church does, namely of offering a true and propitiatory sacrifice"

    Do you agree with this Sean?
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #78 on: June 09, 2018, 09:35:31 AM »
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  • Except that Leo XIII taught that rights can be invalidated by the context even if the essential form remains intact.  Then you forget the change in the essential form made by most vernacular translations of the Novus Ordo (which the English has changed back a couple years ago).

    Context can only invalidate a rite if it is such as to be tantamount to forming a contrary intention (as was the case with the Anglicans).

    The NOM, as promulgated (i.e., using the traditional Roman Canon, clearly indicating the intent to offer a sacrifice) would not suffice.

    As regards a typical NOM (i.e., which generally omit the Roman Canon in favor of some meal formula), I am inclined to agree.

    That the NOM as promulgated is said practically nowhere on the planet is besides the point:

    We are making an argument of principle: That there is a presumption of validity when valid minister, form, matter, and intent are present.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #79 on: June 09, 2018, 09:37:06 AM »
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  • And more from that link....

    "These young priests will not have the intention of doing that which the Church does, for they will not have been taught that the Mass is a true sacrifice. They will not have the intention of offering a sacrifice. They will have the intention of celebrating a Eucharist, a sharing, a communion, a memorial, all of which has nothing to do with faith in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Hence from this moment, inasmuch as these deformed priests no longer have the intention of doing what the Church does, their Masses will obviously be more and more invalid."

    May I presume you disagree with this Sean also?
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #80 on: June 09, 2018, 09:41:18 AM »
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  • If you disagree with this, then you are calling Archbishop Lefebvre a heretic, and I don't think the Admin Matthew would be too happy with that....


    So choose your next words carefully....
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #81 on: June 09, 2018, 10:35:10 AM »
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  • From the link you just gave me....


    "If it cannot be said, as with Anglican orders, that the Novus Ordo rite was changed with the manifest intention of rejecting a sacrificing priesthood, nevertheless the deliberate exclusion of the notion of propitiation, in order to please Protestants, could easily be considered as casting a doubt on the intention of doing what the Church does, namely of offering a true and propitiatory sacrifice"

    Do you agree with this Sean?

    No, because the intention of the minister is not supplied by the form of the sacrament, but by the subjective and internal intention of the minister:

                         LUDOVIC CARDINAL BILLOT, S.J.
                        ON THE SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH:
              A COMMENTARY ON THE THIRD PART OF ST. THOMAS, VOL. 1.

                           THESIS XVIII (q. 64, a. 8 )

       It is Catholic dogma that for the validity of a sacrament, there must
    be in the minister the intention of doing what the Church does. Moreover,
    it is commonly and truly held that an external intention, as they call it,
    does not suffice
    , but that an internal intention is required.

       The intention of doing what the Church does, whatever that may be in
    the opinion of him who administers the sacrament, is said to be required.
    Thus St. Thomas: "Although he who does not believe that baptism is a
    sacrament, or does not believe that it has any spiritual power, does not
    intend when he baptizes to confer a sacrament, nevertheless he intends to
    do what the Church does, even if he counts that as nothing; and because the
    Church intends to do something, therefore, as a consequence of this, he
    intends implicitly to do something, though not explicitly."[1] But it is
    not necessary that the minister think as the Church does, or that he not
    err concerning her teaching; for it is enough if his intention is towards
    something which is identically that which the Church intends, or, something
    which amounts to the same thing, for example, if he intends to do that
    which Christ instituted, or which is commanded in the Gospel, or which
    Christians are accustomed to do according to the prescription of their
    religion. (Thus it is apparent how even a Jєω or a pagan can have an
    intention sufficient for baptizing. Consider for example a catechumen
    placed in a moment of necessity, who asks a pagan saying, "Do for me, I
    entreat you, this mercy, that you pour water on me, pronouncing the words,
    'I baptize you,' etc., with the intention of doing what I myself intend to
    receive according to the prescription of the law of Christians.)

       Although, however, all Catholics agree in asserting the necessity of
    the aforesaid intention, in the sixteenth century a certain new opinion was
    introduced by Catharinus, asserting that a merely external intention
    suffices. Furthermore it is called external, not because considered in
    itself it is not internal, but because the whole intention is directed
    towards external appearance
    ; for according to Catharinus, it consists in
    the will by which someone wishes to conduct himself externally as a serious
    minister of the sacrament, although within himself he intends to ridicule
    or to imitate. Nevertheless, most of the few theologians who agree with
    Catharinus say that the aforesaid external intention does not suffice
    unless the minister in question confects the sacrament in the place and
    sacred vestments according to the customary rite of the Church, for, they
    say, through these circuмstances an exterior rite in itself indifferent is
    determined to be sacramental.

       Furthermore, the opinion of Catharinus is not held in honor by the
    anathema of Trent. "I deem," says Pallavicini,[1] "that the opinion
    proscribed by Trent[3] is the same which Leo X condemned in Luther by his
    Constitution: viz., that the sacrament was instituted by Christ in such a
    manner, that even if the minister carries it out in manifest derision and
    mockery, the effect follows... But in truth the Catholic theologians whom
    we have enumerated, agree in demanding for the efficacy of a sacrament the
    will, not only of following the external action, considered physically,
    which the Church prescribes, (which will is likewise present in the man who
    administers the sacrament in jest), but of exercising his action through
    the exterior ceremony of a man acting seriously, and through the appearance
    of a man directing that ceremony where the Church directs it." -- No less
    to the contrary is the most common teaching of theologians, to which one
    must completely hold fast. It teaches that an internal intention is
    required, one which in other words is not directly wholly to the exterior
    appearance, but is an intention by which the minister not only wishes to
    refrain from all show of simulation as regards the action which appears
    outwardly, but also truly resolves within himself, "I wish to do that which
    the Church does."


    [1]. S. Thom., in IV, D.6, q.1, a.3, q.2, ad 1um.
    [2]. Pallavicini, Hist. of the Conc. of Trent. l.9, c.6.
    [3]. Trent, Sess. VII, can. 11 on the Sacraments.


    Conclusion:  Fr. Scott's position seems very close to forming the same "negative doubt" he previously stated was inadmissible ("I
    wonder if the priest has the proper intention?  After all, we can no longer deduce it by external utterances.).  According to Billot, that concern is completely beside the
    point.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ignatius

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #82 on: June 09, 2018, 10:41:09 AM »
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  • The problem with johnson, he lives in his own head wanting the rest of the world to buy tickets to proffer his brand.  He tries to apply the beginning of the NOM from 1968 starting with real priests of the time as still existing in intention with the evolved ecuмenical NOM 60 years later in 2018.  Reason, he's an indulter with an indulter mind.  Always morphing trying to find a way to live with a local mass and school for himself whatever it is.  He tries to justify this saying he is a part of some 'internal resistance' to placate his existence in any entity.  Result, he is a conflating gnat.

    If the dominicans and their sisinono letters tried to help him see the error of his ways and didn't help him, what is left a frying pan?  Only everyone else is a heretic but him and his indult world.








    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #83 on: June 09, 2018, 12:28:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    We are making an argument of principle: That there is a presumption of validity when valid minister, form, matter, and intent are present.
    The NOM cannot be presumed to be valid; quite the opposite.  There is doubt in regards to the priest’s ordination, as well as the form/intent, due to the imprecision of the words that have been changed in the canon AS WELL AS the offertory and communion.  

    If one reduces the mass to the consecration only, they are mistakenly forgetting the other 2 essential parts of the mass. 

    The validity of the consecration is separate from the validity of the mass as a whole.  There can be a valid consecration but an invalid mass, just like a satanic mass can have a valid consecration but is obviously blasphemous.  

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #84 on: June 09, 2018, 12:28:56 PM »
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  • The problem with johnson, he lives in his own head wanting the rest of the world to buy tickets to proffer his brand.  He tries to apply the beginning of the NOM from 1968 starting with real priests of the time as still existing in intention with the evolved ecuмenical NOM 60 years later in 2018.  Reason, he's an indulter with an indulter mind.  Always morphing trying to find a way to live with a local mass and school for himself whatever it is.  He tries to justify this saying he is a part of some 'internal resistance' to placate his existence in any entity.  Result, he is a conflating gnat.

    If the dominicans and their sisinono letters tried to help him see the error of his ways and didn't help him, what is left a frying pan?  Only everyone else is a heretic but him and his indult world.
    :laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:  I could not have put it better.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #85 on: June 09, 2018, 12:30:49 PM »
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  • Context can only invalidate a rite if it is such as to be tantamount to forming a contrary intention (as was the case with the Anglicans).

    And you can argue that, or else point to things in the Novus Ordo which seem to embrace a Protestant view of the Liturgy.  In any case, this is cause at least for positive doubt regarding its validity.  Consequently, I would not, except in danger of death, receive in Communion a Host that was consecrated in the New Rite (to say nothing of the positive doubt regarding NO ordinations and episcopal consecrations).  I do not say that it's certainly invalid, just that there's positive doubt due to the nature of the changes.  If you read the Ottaviani intervention, those theologians/prelates argue that the Catholic intention regarding the Mass has been completely corrupted and replaced with a Protestant understanding in the NOM.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #86 on: June 09, 2018, 12:34:02 PM »
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  • a satanic mass can have a valid consecration

    Highly debatable, and even the Satanists know this, so Satanic Masses use stolen consecrated Hosts.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #87 on: June 09, 2018, 12:35:48 PM »
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  • No, because the intention of the minister is not supplied by the form of the sacrament, but by the subjective and internal intention of the minister:

    I disagree, and so does St. Thomas.  It's based on the objective and externally-manifested (albeit internal) intention of the minister.  So if the priest performs the Catholic Rite as prescribed, he has the intention to do WHAT the Church DOES ... even if he doesn't believe in or intend to perform transubstantiation for instance.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #88 on: June 09, 2018, 12:40:46 PM »
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  • And you can argue that, or else point to things in the Novus Ordo which seem to embrace a Protestant view of the Liturgy.  In any case, this is cause at least for positive doubt regarding its validity.  Consequently, I would not, except in danger of death, receive in Communion a Host that was consecrated in the New Rite (to say nothing of the positive doubt regarding NO ordinations and episcopal consecrations).  I do not say that it's certainly invalid, just that there's positive doubt due to the nature of the changes.  If you read the Ottaviani intervention, those theologians/prelates argue that the Catholic intention regarding the Mass has been completely corrupted and replaced with a Protestant understanding in the NOM.
    My variant on your comments is:

    1) On a case by case basis, there may or may not be positive doubt as regards the validity of the NOM: But as a matter of principle, one cannot conclude they are all per se doubtful, because:

    2) If form, matter, intent, and valid ordination can all be verified, there are no grounds whatsoever for any doubt at all.

    Like you, I would not receive NOM Communion except in extreme necessity (nor would I receive Communion at any indult), and haven't done either in 20 years, regardless of what a couple mentally ill crackpots say on this thread elsewhere.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #89 on: June 09, 2018, 12:43:42 PM »
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  • The NOM cannot be presumed to be valid; quite the opposite.  There is doubt in regards to the priest’s ordination, as well as the form/intent, due to the imprecision of the words that have been changed in the canon AS WELL AS the offertory and communion.  

    If one reduces the mass to the consecration only, they are mistakenly forgetting the other 2 essential parts of the mass.

    The validity of the consecration is separate from the validity of the mass as a whole.  There can be a valid consecration but an invalid mass, just like a satanic mass can have a valid consecration but is obviously blasphemous.  

    Please red more carefully: I said there is a presumption of validity WHEN valid minister, form, matter, and intent are present.

    That should be indisputable, unless you want to explain how, despite the presence of all 4, the confection of a sacrament might still be questionable (heretical).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."