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Author Topic: Rule Violator #2: JPaul  (Read 8874 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2018, 07:21:56 PM »
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    Moreover, unless there is evidence in the external forum of a priest forming a contrary intention, the intention is prersumed valid, as a principle of sacramental theology, thereby yielding moral certitude (which is all the Church requires, and which definitely removes and pre-empts any specious argument regarding in favor of doubt).
    This only applies to the sacraments of the Old rite, which were worded with precise language so that the Church’s intentions were fulfilled when the priest used such words.  

    As Cardinal Ottaviani, Bacci et all explained in the “Ottaviani intervention”, the new mass and sacraments have new language and such wording does NOT provide the proper intention.  So the intention for the new rite must be provided by the priest, which is a “crap shoot” because that all depends on 1) if they are a valid priest and 2) if they were trained properly in the seminaries.  



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #61 on: June 08, 2018, 07:28:23 PM »
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  • This only applies to the sacraments of the Old rite, which were worded with precise language so that the Church’s intentions were fulfilled when the priest used such words.  

    As Cardinal Ottaviani, Bacci et all explained in the “Ottaviani intervention”, the new mass and sacraments have new language and such wording does NOT provide the proper intention.  So the intention for the new rite must be provided by the priest, which is a “crap shoot” because that all depends on 1) if they are a valid priest and 2) if they were trained properly in the seminaries.  

    Hi PV-

    The “essential rites” of the old and new consecratory prayers of Mass are identical, and consequently the intention to consecrate is equally expressed in either.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #62 on: June 08, 2018, 08:11:43 PM »
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  • Sean, your position is based upon many assumptions and opinions and more often than not we would seem to have a perfect storm roiling about the false mass so as to lean towards its possible validity, which is itself is unimportant because it is not Catholic in the first place. 

    As Father Hesse says, "it is not a work of the Catholic Church", and as Father Wathen states, "it is always a great sacrilege."
    Good and true statements of two principled Catholic men.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #63 on: June 09, 2018, 06:07:18 AM »
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  • Sean, your position is based upon many assumptions and opinions and more often than not we would seem to have a perfect storm roiling about the false mass so as to lean towards its possible validity, which is itself is unimportant because it is not Catholic in the first place.

    As Father Hesse says, "it is not a work of the Catholic Church", and as Father Wathen states, "it is always a great sacrilege."
    Good and true statements of two principled Catholic men.
    My “opinion” is based on the doctrine of the Church which, however distasteful to you, must still be applied, yes, even to the NOM.

    You seem emotionally and intellectually unable to digest that, as though doing so would be tantamount to saying there's nothing wrong with the NOM or attending it.

    You are an extremest because your mind thinks only in absolutes: Everything is either 100% "this" with no exceptions, or it is 100% "that" with no exceptions.

    With that kind of approach you will err frequently in theology (for example, it has led you to sedevacantism).

    Feeneyism would also be a likely destination for you at some point.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #64 on: June 09, 2018, 07:52:35 AM »
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  • My “opinion” is based on the doctrine of the Church which, however distasteful to you, must still be applied, yes, even to the NOM.

    You seem emotionally and intellectually unable to digest that, as though doing so would be tantamount to saying there's nothing wrong with the NOM or attending it.

    You are an extremest because your mind thinks only in absolutes: Everything is either 100% "this" with no exceptions, or it is 100% "that" with no exceptions.

    With that kind of approach you will err frequently in theology (for example, it has led you to sedevacantism).

    Feeneyism would also be a likely destination for you at some point.
    "Feeneyism" is Church dogma. EENS. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #65 on: June 09, 2018, 07:56:07 AM »
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  • "Feeneyism" is Church dogma. EENS.
    I'm not going there.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #66 on: June 09, 2018, 08:30:25 AM »
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  • Hi PV-

    The “essential rites” of the old and new consecratory prayers of Mass are identical, and consequently the intention to consecrate is equally expressed in either.

    Except that Leo XIII taught that rights can be invalidated by the context even if the essential form remains intact.  Then you forget the change in the essential form made by most vernacular translations of the Novus Ordo (which the English has changed back a couple years ago).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #67 on: June 09, 2018, 08:30:49 AM »
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  • I'm not going there.

    You're the one who went there in the first place.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #68 on: June 09, 2018, 08:32:08 AM »
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  • "Feeneyism" is Church dogma. EENS.

    This is essentially correct. "Feeneyism" is always mischaracterized as equating with Father's opinion regarding Baptism of Desire.  But Baptism of Desire is a side issue.  Father was battling against the heretical EENS-deniers without mention of BoD in the early years.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #69 on: June 09, 2018, 09:04:05 AM »
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  • My “opinion” is based on the doctrine of the Church which, however distasteful to you, must still be applied, yes, even to the NOM.

    You seem emotionally and intellectually unable to digest that, as though doing so would be tantamount to saying there's nothing wrong with the NOM or attending it.

    You are an extremest because your mind thinks only in absolutes: Everything is either 100% "this" with no exceptions, or it is 100% "that" with no exceptions.

    With that kind of approach you will err frequently in theology (for example, it has led you to sedevacantism).

    Feeneyism would also be a likely destination for you at some point.
    The above mentioned clerics opinions are indeed based upon the doctrine of the Church, and if I might say, they knew and understood that doctrine much better and more succinctly than you.
     It is the doctrine of the Church which leads me to reject the new order because in where it applies to such an deliberate effort to destroy the Mass of the Church it is absolute. You on the other hand set aside the fundamental issues to use smaller  diversionary point of doctrine to argue it validity.
    You and the Bishop never bring up the problematic validity of Novus Ordo priests or the danger it presents.(conveniently)
    Your theological approach to theology seems to be that everything is negotiable, if you prove that a point over here can be true, then point A or B must give way to your theory about the subject. You are very selective as to what you argue and propose, so it always seems to come out in your favor.
    I am not a sedevacantist but I am faithful to the Dogmas of the Church in the matter of exclusive salvation as found only in the Catholic Church. It may pain you to know that there are doctrines and principles which are 100% absolute and not open to interpretation or change, but there are.


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #70 on: June 09, 2018, 09:09:14 AM »
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  • Hi Flats-

     At the time when everyone was talking about Anglican orders, numbers of Catholics confused intention with faith. Faith is not wanted. It is heresy to say that it is. (This was the error of St Cyprian and Firmilian against which Pope Stephen I [254–257] protested.) A man may have utterly wrong, heretical and blasphemous views about a sacrament and yet confer or receive it quite validly.”

    -Adrian Fortescue: The Greek Fathers

    This is not about faith. It is about doing something the contrary of what the thing is intended to do.

    In any case, even if you are right, it still does not justify presuming the sacraments are valid, which is what you are insinuating. It is more prudent to re-do them. And that is all I am saying. The Church will judge the rest in good time.

    There is of course precedence for what you are saying in regard to baptism. Even a Jєω can baptise validly.

    Is there any definitive pronouncements in a similar vein in relation to the other sacraments?


    Are you on any medication for your bipolar?
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #71 on: June 09, 2018, 09:10:55 AM »
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  • This is not about faith. It is about doing something the contrary of what the thing is intended to do.

    In any case, even if you are right, it still does not justify presuming the sacraments are valid, which is what you are insinuating. It is more prudent to re-do them. And that is all I am saying. The Church will judge the rest in good time.

    There is of course precedence for what you are saying in regard to baptism. Even a Jєω can baptise validly.

    Is there any definitive pronouncements in a similar vein in relation to the other sacraments?
    Flats-

    Wrong again: The presumption is always in favor of validity, not invalidity.

    Your opinion is entirely based on negative doubt, which never suffices to reproduce a sacrament.

    Positive doubt is what the Church requires in order to conditionally repeat a sacrament.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #72 on: June 09, 2018, 09:13:12 AM »
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  • Flats-

    Wrong again: The presumption is always in favor of validity, not invalidity.


    Ok well that has not been the opinion of a huge number of priests tradition and Archbishop Lefrebvre. Do you have citations to show you know better?
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #73 on: June 09, 2018, 09:18:40 AM »
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  • The point I think that would be made is that considering the Mass only a meal and not a sacrifice, constitutes a postive doubt. It is deliberately going against what the Church does.

    If one had no opinion either way, then you might be right.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
    « Reply #74 on: June 09, 2018, 09:24:29 AM »
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  • Ok well that has not been the opinion of a huge number of priests tradition and Archbishop Lefrebvre. Do you have citations to show you know better?

    Flats-

    You are mixing and mashing ideas:

    What has always been the opinion of Tradition is that conciliar converts ought to be conditionally ordained.

    But the reason for that is not because the sacraments are all per se doubtful (i.e., objectively and in themselves invalid).

    The reason is because either:

    1) There is positive doubt regarding one off the 4 elements necessary for a valid sacrament;

    0r

    2) Doubt exists because of the impossibility of ascertaining the satisfaction of the 4 elements necessary for a valid sacrament.

    See this article from Fr. Peter Scott in 2007, which expresses my opinion EXACTLY:

    http://sspx.org/en/must-priests-who-come-tradition-be-re-ordained
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."