Author Topic: ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text  (Read 5865 times)

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Offline Marie

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ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
« on: June 13, 2012, 09:09:18 PM »
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  • From La Croix:

    [In Bishop Fellay's text] there remained however formulations judged non-acceptable by Rome, notably the mention of the "errors of the council": to put it clearly, the Society may have reservation on this or that point of Vatican II (freedom of conscience, interreligious dialogue, ecumenism), but they cannot speak of the "errors of the council".



    http://www.la-croix.com/Religion/Urbi-Orbi/Rome/Mgr-Fellay-a-recu-la-reponse-de-Benoit-XVI-pour-la-reintegration-de-la-Fraternite-Saint-Pie-X-_NG_-2012-06-13-818090

    Offline trento

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 10:14:06 PM »
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  • Even Rome had to correct the 'subsistit in' phrase used in Lumen Gentium later, so why can't we talk about the 'errors of the council'? Nonsense.


    Offline Matthew

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 10:30:44 PM »
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  • 13/6/12 - 14 H 41 MIS À JOUR LE 13/6/12 - 17 H 19

    Mgr Fellay a reçu la réponse de Benoît XVI pour la réintégration de la Fraternité Saint-Pie-X

    Mgr Fellay, supérieur de la Fraternité sacerdotale Saint-Pie-X, était à Rome mercredi 13 juin pour recevoir de la Congrégation de la doctrine de la foi la réponse du pape visant le retour de la Fraternité dans l’Église

     P.RAZZO/CIRIC
    Mgr Fellay s'adressant aux enfants le 27 mai, au soir du deuxième jour du pélerinage de Tradition, organisé par la FSSPX entre Chartres et Orléans.
    Ce document concerne à la fois les conditions de fond, et aussi la mise en œuvre pratique de cette réintégration

    Avec cet article
    Dossier Le rapprochement entre la Fraternité Saint-Pie X et le Vatican
    C’est samedi dernier 9 juin, lors d’une réunion de travail avec Benoît XVI, que le texte a été mis au point. Ce mercredi 13 juin, le cardinal William Levada, préfet de la Congrégation pour la doctrine de la foi, l’a remis à Mgr Bernard Fellay, supérieur général de la Fraternité sacerdotale Saint-Pie-X (FSSPX). Le document rend possible le retour de la Fraternité dans l’Église, abordant à la fois les questions de fond, et les conditions de forme, avec la constitution d’une prélature personnelle pour la FSSPX.

    Sur le fond, c’est-à-dire le préambule doctrinal posé comme condition à la réintégration, le document prend acte des avancées faites par le supérieur de la Fraternité en mars dernier, dans une lettre envoyée à Rome. Cette réponse avait été jugée positivement, aussi bien par la Congrégation pour la doctrine de la foi que le pape lui-même. Les cardinaux avaient alors été frappés par le changement de ton manifesté par la Fraternité. Contrairement à leur première réponse, en effet, les intégristes ne rejetaient plus de manière générale et définitive le magistère de Vatican II et celui des papes suivants.

    Restaient cependant des formulations jugées non acceptables par Rome, notamment la mention des « erreurs du concile » : en clair, la Fraternité peut avoir des réserves sur tel ou tel point de Vatican II (liberté de conscience, dialogue interreligieux, œcuménisme) mais elle ne peut parler d’« erreurs du concile ». Ce préambule devrait être rendu public, une fois l’accord définitif de Mgr Fellay obtenu. En revanche, on ne connaîtra pas la version originale d’abord proposée par Rome, sur laquelle a porté la discussion.

    MGR FELLAY PEUT DEMANDER UN NOUVEAU DÉLAI POUR RÉFLÉCHIR
    Le texte remis ce mercredi prévoit aussi les conditions pratiques de cette réintégration, avec la création d’une prélature personnelle, semblable à celle créée par Jean-Paul II pour l’Opus Dei. Une prélature personnelle est une sorte de diocèse sans territoire, qui donnerait donc à la Fraternité autorité sur ses membres, à condition d’obtenir l’accord de l’évêque du lieu pour s’implanter dans tel ou tel endroit. En revanche, cet assentiment de l’évêque ne serait pas nécessaire pour les maisons, églises et prieurés déjà fondés.

    Il faut cependant rester prudent sur la suite du processus. D’abord, Mgr Fellay doit accepter les dernières modifications demandées par Rome, et donc saisir la porte ouverte par Benoît XVI. Tout semble indiquer qu’il y est prêt. Ainsi, dans un entretien paru sur le site d’information de la FSSPX, le 7 juin dernier, il notait que « Rome ne fait plus d’une acceptation totale de Vatican II une condition pour la solution canonique », relevant qu’« aujourd’hui, à Rome, certains considèrent qu’une compréhension différente du Concile n’est pas déterminante pour l’avenir de l’Église, car l’Église est plus que le Concile ».

    Mais le supérieur de la Fraternité peut demander un nouveau délai pour réfléchir. Il faut en effet se souvenir que déjà, en 1988, alors qu’ils avaient signé l’accord doctrinal, les intégristes avaient brutalement rompu les discussions. De plus, il paraît certain que, même si Mgr Fellay accepte, une partie de la Fraternité ne le suivra pas. Et on ignore quelle sera la situation des autres évêques de la Fraternité, dont l’excommunication avait été levée par Benoît XVI en 2009, et qui, vraisemblablement, n’accepteront pas la réintégration.

    LES ÉVÊQUES FRANÇAIS ATTENTIFS À TOUTE FORME DE TRIOMPHALISME DE LA FSSPX
    La résorption du schisme est l’un des objectifs assignés par Benoît XVI pour son pontificat, et il a mis tout son poids pour y parvenir. Il est convaincu, observe un proche du dossier, que « si la Fraternité est rattachée au reste de l’Église, la tradition vivante irriguera cette communauté, et que le temps fera son œuvre pour aplanir les résistances ».

    Vu de l’Église de France cependant, où le poids de la Fraternité est historiquement important, les choses se présentent de manière plus complexe. Les évêques vont se montrer extrêmement attentifs aux prises de position publique des responsables de la Fraternité, de façon à ce que ces derniers, par une forme de triomphalisme, n’indisposent pas la majorité des catholiques français, comme cela s’était passé lors de la création de l’Institut du Bon Pasteur.

    Ils savent aussi que la décision risque d’être interprétée par ces mêmes catholiques comme un enterrement des acquis conciliaires, cinquante ans après sa tenue. Nul doute qu’ils saisiront l’occasion donnée par cet anniversaire pour les rassurer, et rappeler avec force l’importance de Vatican II dans le fonctionnement de l’Église d’aujourd’hui.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline AntiFellayism

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 10:48:04 PM »
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  • So...

    Are we shining our boots for next month's General Council or what ?!  :nunchaku:
    And now, we have a perfectly liberal Pope, my very dear brothers. As he goes to this country [the United States]which is founded upon Masonic principles, that is, of a revolution, of a rebellion against God. And, well, he expressed his admira

    Offline Roman55

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 11:06:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: AntiFellayism
    So...

    Are we shining our boots for next month's General Council or what ?!  :nunchaku:


    This is stunningly great!!!  Here is the Google translation:
    13/06/12 - 14 H 41 UPDATED 06/13/12 - H 17 19

    Bishop Fellay has received a reply from Benedict XVI for the reintegration of the Society of St. Pius X

    Bishop Fellay, superior of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, was in Rome Wednesday, June 13 to receive the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith Pope's response to the return of the Brotherhood in the Church

    P.RAZZO / CIRIC
    Bishop Fellay for children May 27, the evening of the second day of the pilgrimage of Tradition, organized by the SSPX between Chartres and Orleans.
    This document covers both the substantive requirements, and also the practical implementation of the reintegration

    With this article
    The reconciliation file the Society of St. Pius X and Vatican
    It is Saturday June 9, during a working meeting with Benedict XVI, the text has been developed. This Wednesday, June 13, Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gave it to Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X (SSPX). The document makes possible the return of the fraternity in the Church, addressing both the substantive and formal requirements, with the creation of a personal prelature for the SSPX.

    On the merits, that is to say the preamble doctrinal set a condition to reinstatement, the document notes the progress made by the Superior of the Society in March, in a letter sent to Rome. This response was considered positive, both by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that the pope himself. The Cardinals were then struck by the change in tone expressed by the Brotherhood. Unlike their first response, in effect, rejected the fundamentalists more generally and the final teaching of Vatican II and the following popes.

    However remained formulations deemed unacceptable by Rome, including the reference to "errors of the council" in the clear, the Brotherhood may have reservations about certain points of Vatican II (freedom of conscience, interreligious dialogue, ecumenism) but it can speak of "errors of the council." The introduction should be made public once the final agreement of Bishop Fellay obtained. However, we will not know the original version first proposed by Rome, which focused on the discussion.

    Bishop Fellay MAY REQUEST A NEW TIME TO REFLECT
    The text presented on Wednesday also provides the practical conditions of this reinstatement, with the creation of a personal prelature, similar to that created by John Paul II for Opus Dei. A personal prelature is a kind of diocese without territory, which would thus give to the fraternity authority over its members, provided they obtain the agreement of the local bishop to settle in one place or another. However, this knowledge of the bishop would not be necessary for houses, priories and churches already founded.

    It should however be cautious about the rest of the process. First, Bishop Fellay has to accept the latest modifications requested by Rome, and then enter the door opened by Benedict XVI. All indications are that there is ready. Thus, in an interview published on the website information of the SSPX, June 7, he noted that "Rome is no longer a full acceptance of Vatican II a condition for the canonical solution," noting that "TODAY 'Today, in Rome, some consider that a different understanding of the Council is not decisive for the future of the Church because the Church is more than the Council. "

    But the Superior of the Society may request a further period for reflection. It must indeed be remembered that already in 1988, when they had signed the doctrine, fundamentalists had abruptly severed discussions. Moreover, it seems certain that even if Bishop Fellay agree, part of the Brotherhood will not follow. And it is unclear what it will look the other bishops of the Society, whose excommunication was lifted by Benedict in 2009, and who probably will not accept reinstatement.

    FRENCH BISHOPS TO ANY FORM OF MINDFUL triumphalism of the SSPX
    Resorption of the schism is one of the objectives assigned by Benedict XVI for his pontificate, and he put all his weight to get there. He is convinced, observed a close case, "If the Brotherhood is linked to the rest of the Church, the living tradition irrigate this community, and that time will do its work to overcome the resistance."

    Seen from the Church of France, however, where the weight of the Fraternity is historically important, things are more complex. The bishops will be extremely attentive to the views of public officials of the Brotherhood, so that the latter, by a form of triumphalism, do not antagonize the majority of French Catholics, as had happened during the creation of the Institute of the Good Shepherd.

    They also know that the decision could be read by those same Catholics as a funeral achievements conciliar, fifty years after the meeting. No doubt they will seize the opportunity provided by the anniversary to reassure them, and powerful reminder of the importance of Vatican II in the functioning of the Church today.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 12:54:36 AM »
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  • Please pass the asprin!

    I'll be darned if I can make heads or tails of the Google translation.

    The best I can guess is that it contains some significant facts, but as to
    what exactly those are, all bets are off.


    When it comes to these matters, one misspelled word or one word missing
    renders an entirely different meaning to the sentence.

    I could presume to know what the proper words in English SHOULD be, but
    why waste the effort?

    I can't wait for an official proofed copy.................   :soapbox:
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 12:57:46 AM »
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  • I don't know.  The cautious realist in me suspects this is still theater.  

    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline Lucca Back

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 02:11:49 AM »
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  • The response from Rome is not 'encouraging' for Bishop Fellay, but there is still some possiblity of his approval of this response.

    I think he is really addicted in this 'Deal of Decade'.


    Offline trento

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2012, 03:13:29 AM »
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  • How different will this doctrinal declaration be from that of the May 5 1988 protocol? We'll just have to wait and see.

    Text of the Doctrinal Declaration

    I, Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop emeritus of Tulle, as well as the members of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X founded by me:

    1. Promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff, her Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Blessed Peter in his primacy as Head of the Body of Bishops.

    2. We declare our acceptance of the doctrine contained in number 25 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of the Second Vatican Council on the ecclesial Magisterium and the adherence which is due to that magisterium.

    3. With regard to certain points taught by the Second Vatican Council or concerning later reforms of the liturgy and law, and which seem to us able to be reconciled with the Tradition only with difficulty, we commit ourselves to have a positive attitude of study and of communication with the Holy See, avoiding all polemics.

    4. We declare in addition to recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing that which the Church does and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

    5. Finally, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and ecclesiastical laws, especially those contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope John Paul II, without prejudice to the special discipline granted to the Society by particular law.

    Offline Wessex

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 04:30:00 AM »
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  • What this shows really is over time the hardliners (justifiably IMHO) have got harder and the softliners softer. The gulf between the two is wider than ever because of the 'agreement' battleground ... and I cannot see them being reconciled whatever happens.

    Offline Francisco

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2012, 06:34:06 AM »
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  • This is remarkable. Bishop Fellay in his latest interview told us that it was the Pope rather than himself who wants this deal. Therefore, would not the Pope or his advisers have helped Bishop Fellay with his answer to the Doctrinal Preamble? How could he have said "errors" of Vatican II if his hand was being moved by the Pope?
    And ...did he not tell us that the Pope would accept the SSPX as it is?

    Perhaps the Most Holy Virgin is answering all those Rosary (Rusery) Crusades in the way she knows best!


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 06:37:45 AM »
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  • "If the Brotherhood is linked to the rest of the Church, the living tradition irrigate this community, and that time will do its work to overcome the resistance."

    Indeed!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 06:52:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lucca Back
    The response from Rome is not 'encouraging' for Bishop Fellay, but there is still some possiblity of his approval of this response.

    I think he is really addicted in this 'Deal of Decade'.


    It is unfortunate that Bishop Fellay has lost focus.  Doctrine has now become just a roadblock rather than the beef of the matter.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #13 on: June 14, 2012, 07:59:47 AM »
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  • From the VATICAN INFORMATION SERVICE

    14/6/2012
    BISHOP FELLAY VISITS THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

    Vatican City, 14 June 2012 (VIS) - "On the afternoon of Wednesday 13 June, Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and president of the Pontifical Commission 'Ecclesia Dei', met with Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the Society of St. Pius X who was accompanied by an assistant. Also present at the encounter were Archbishop Luis Ladaria S.J., secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Msgr. Guido Pozzo, secretary of the Pontifical Commission 'Ecclesia Dei'", according to a communique released today by the Holy See Press Office.
    "The purpose of the meeting was to present the Holy See's evaluation of the text submitted in April by the Society of St. Pius X in response to the Doctrinal Preamble which the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith had presented to the Society on 14 September 2011. The subsequent discussion offered an opportunity the provide the appropriate explanations and clarifications. For his part, Bishop Fellay illustrated the current situation of the Society of St. Pius X and promised to make his response known within a reasonable lapse of time.
    "Also during the meeting, a draft document was submitted proposing a Personal Prelature as the most appropriate instrument for any future canonical recognition of the Society.
    "As was stated in the communique released on 16 May 2012, the situation of the other three bishops of the Society of St. Pius X will be dealt with separately and singularly.
    "At the end of the meeting the hope was expressed that this additional opportunity for reflection would also contribute to reaching full communion between the Society of St. Pius X and the Apostolic See".
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Guga

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    ROME REJECTS SSPX Preamble Text
    « Reply #14 on: June 14, 2012, 08:13:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marie
    From La Croix:

    [In Bishop Fellay's text] there remained however formulations judged non-acceptable by Rome, notably the mention of the "errors of the council": to put it clearly, the Society may have reservation on this or that point of Vatican II (freedom of conscience, interreligious dialogue, ecumenism), but they cannot speak of the "errors of the council".



    http://www.la-croix.com/Religion/Urbi-Orbi/Rome/Mgr-Fellay-a-recu-la-reponse-de-Benoit-XVI-pour-la-reintegration-de-la-Fraternite-Saint-Pie-X-_NG_-2012-06-13-818090


    It can be a sign that the resistance is greater than +Fellay thought it would be. They are ruining too fast. Why Rome would make an agreement if + Fellay don't have the majority? If that is the case, Rome just sent +Flellay back to his work ( breaking the resistance) until the next evil manoeuvre.

     

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