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Author Topic: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia  (Read 1588 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Yeti

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Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2023, 03:26:42 PM »
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  • Given the response they got to their previous Dubia, you'd think they would have used a different tactic this time. I'm not sure what the point of this is if there is no follow-up action when Francis ignores them.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #2 on: October 02, 2023, 05:07:31 PM »
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  • Given the response they got to their previous Dubia, you'd think they would have used a different tactic this time. I'm not sure what the point of this is if there is no follow-up action when Francis ignores them.

    I too am not sure what the point is of sending a second Dubia on Aug 21. The five Cardinals stated that Francis did not actually answer the questions on the original Dubia of July 10. That's not surprising, since modernists are known to not like clarity. Maybe they just want Catholics to see the process of what's happening, and to show that they are trying to do something. They were too nice in both their Dubias. They should have mentioned the "H" word at least once (H standing for heresy).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #3 on: October 02, 2023, 06:42:23 PM »
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  • I'm glad to see Zen waking up to who Bergoglio is after he sold the Chinese Church out to the Chicoms.

    But, to me, what's more disturbing is that ONLY FIVE Cardinals object to Jorge's open heresy.  3 of the 5 are not "voting" Cardinals, Sarah has 2 years left, and Burke has 5 years.  There are quite a few Cardinals about 1-2 years from retirement, so I'm sure that Jorge intends to hold out for another 2 years at least to make sure the scoundrels he himself appointed will "elect" the next heresiarch.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #4 on: October 02, 2023, 06:45:44 PM »
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  • I'm glad to see Zen waking up to who Bergoglio is after he sold the Chinese Church out to the Chicoms.

    But, to me, what's more disturbing is that ONLY FIVE Cardinals object to Jorge's open heresy.  3 of the 5 are not "voting" Cardinals, Sarah has 2 years left, and Burke has 5 years.  There are quite a few Cardinals about 1-2 years from retirement, so I'm sure that Jorge intends to hold out for another 2 years at least to make sure the scoundrels he himself appointed will "elect" the next heresiarch.

    And he just appointed 21 more cardinals a couple days ago
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #5 on: October 02, 2023, 06:53:31 PM »
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  • And he just appointed 21 more cardinals a couple days ago

    I'm sure that there wasn't a non-Modernist / non-heretic in the entire bunch.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #6 on: October 03, 2023, 05:33:34 AM »
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  • So, I think we see that state that the Conciliar hierarchy are in, where only 5 Cardinals even "questioned" (that's all it is) Bergoglio's "blessing" of same-sex copulation.

    Also, no Cardinal or bishops have called Jorge out for his EENS-denial, heretical ecclesiology, and religious indifferentism.  Those really are his most flagrant heresies, and the one's he's most consistent about.  That's because those things go back to Wojtyla the Great, and the "conservative" Conciliar "bishops" have bought into all that themselves.  When you look at the conservative Novus Ordo crowd, such as exemplified on EWTN, that is THE heresy they promote (even if they're mostly aligned with Traditional Catholic doctrine on other matters).

    But, apart from that, if these 5 Cardinals got up tomorrow and issued a declaration that Jorge isn't the pope and that a new pope needs to be elected, and then the 5 of them elected a new pope, would you accept the legitimacy of that pope?  Straight SVs would say that these 5 are not Cardinals, whereas sedeprivationists and R&R would say that they are, with sedeprivtionists holding that they're at least in the position to vote in a conclave.  So for those who believe these are legitimate Cardinals, would you accept their election of a new pope?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #7 on: October 03, 2023, 05:44:16 AM »
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  • I'm sure that there wasn't a non-Modernist / non-heretic in the entire bunch.

    Interestingly, with the recent appointment of these 21 cardinals, the number of Cardinal-electors (136 today) now exceeds the maximum limit of 120 specified by JPII in UDG:

    Under current ecclesiastical law, as defined by the apostolic constitution Universi Dominici gregis, only cardinals who have not passed their 80th birthdays on the day on which the Holy See becomes vacant are eligible to participate in a papal conclave to elect a new pope.[3] The same apostolic constitution also specifies a maximum of 120 cardinal electors who can participate in a conclave, but makes no provision in case this number is exceeded;[3] this has often happened, although never at the time of a conclave. Cardinals may also be created in pectore ('in the breast'), in which case their identities are not publicly revealed by the pope; they do not enjoy the privileges of a cardinal until their names are published. The creations of any such cardinals who have not been revealed at the pope's death or resignation automatically lapse.[1][4]

    As of 1 October 2023, there are 242 cardinals, 136 of whom are cardinal electors. The most recent consistory for the creation of cardinalswas held on 30 September 2023, when Pope Francis created 21 cardinals, including 18 cardinal electors.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_cardinals#:~:text=As%20of%201%20October%202023,cardinals%2C%20including%2018%20cardinal%20electors.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #8 on: October 03, 2023, 06:23:37 AM »
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  • Just a quick informal look the list of "Cardinals," I see ...

    79 years old -- 14
    78 years old -- 13
    77 years old -- 9

    So 27 of these Cardinals are within a couple years of no longer being eligible to vote.  Within a year, the 136 "electors" will be down to 122, and then the following year down to 109 ... at which point he'll likely appoint another 11 or so more, stacking the deck for the next election.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #9 on: October 03, 2023, 09:55:53 AM »
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  • So for those who believe these are legitimate Cardinals, would you accept their election of a new pope?

    Only Cardinals Burke and Sarah of the five cardinals are under the age of 80, so this is a tough question to answer.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #10 on: October 03, 2023, 01:24:40 PM »
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  • IMO by the words and actions of the new order bishops and cardinals, they want the parishioners to see that there are some good clergy in the counterfeit church.  Truth is, not one of the so-called clergy are good.  As long as they are N.O. they support abortion and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, no matter how much they say, they are not, telling the truth that they are New Order, and that is ok with them to say an adulterated mass. These imposters want to keep the people in the New Order and their money there.  See how the coalition of cancelled priest do it?  They lie.  They are not priests.  The group had on billboards to reinstate them.  They want New Order.  


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #11 on: October 04, 2023, 09:10:24 AM »
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  • But, to me, what's more disturbing is that ONLY FIVE Cardinals object to Jorge's open heresy.  3 of the 5 are not "voting" Cardinals
    .

    Interesting point. This pretty refutes the absurd idea that there are people in the Novus Ordo hierarchy who profess the Catholic Faith. With the exception of these five, all of them tacitly accepted Bergoglio's errors. This is because silence is a form of consent, especially for someone in a position of authority. All of the "bishops" and "cardinals" who were silent in the face of Bergoglio's errors thereby consented to them. And a person's profession of faith and membership in the Church is determined by their external actions, not their secret thoughts. In pagan Rome, people who offered incense to the pagan idols to avoid death were apostates even if they secretly still believed in the Catholic Faith.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #12 on: October 04, 2023, 09:31:47 AM »
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  • .

    Interesting point. This pretty refutes the absurd idea that there are people in the Novus Ordo hierarchy who profess the Catholic Faith. With the exception of these five, all of them tacitly accepted Bergoglio's errors. This is because silence is a form of consent, especially for someone in a position of authority. All of the "bishops" and "cardinals" who were silent in the face of Bergoglio's errors thereby consented to them. And a person's profession of faith and membership in the Church is determined by their external actions, not their secret thoughts. In pagan Rome, people who offered incense to the pagan idols to avoid death were apostates even if they secretly still believed in the Catholic Faith.
    And these same five accept Vatican II.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #13 on: October 04, 2023, 09:32:26 AM »
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  • .

    Interesting point. This pretty refutes the absurd idea that there are people in the Novus Ordo hierarchy who profess the Catholic Faith. With the exception of these five, all of them tacitly accepted Bergoglio's errors. This is because silence is a form of consent, especially for someone in a position of authority. All of the "bishops" and "cardinals" who were silent in the face of Bergoglio's errors thereby consented to them. And a person's profession of faith and membership in the Church is determined by their external actions, not their secret thoughts. In pagan Rome, people who offered incense to the pagan idols to avoid death were apostates even if they secretly still believed in the Catholic Faith.

    Right, so you have 2 of the 138 or so current "voting" cardinals who would would ask a "question" (which is all the "dubia" are, questions) of Bergoglio on things topics that are blatantly heretical.

    This is where I keep saying, "Universal Acceptance"?  ... by WHOM?  These guys would probably accept Jorge teaching that Christ is not God.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano Spreading: Cardinals Issue New Dubia
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2023, 09:49:35 AM »
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  • And these same five accept Vatican II.

    Indeed.  In fact, they only even question things when they're obvious heresy, but they have no problem with the pre-existing V2 heresies.