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Author Topic: Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson  (Read 15807 times)

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Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2015, 09:05:21 PM »
Quote from: S.Johnson via Matthew in the OP

1).  Regarding the statement that "Archbishop Lefebvre always wanted a deal."
...
Two years later, in the famous January/February, 1991 edition of the same Fideliter, Archbishop Lefebvre reiterrated his position regarding any deal with unconverted Rome: In response to the question, "Why not try and reach out to Rome one more time?", Archbishop Lefebvre responded:

"It is absolutely impossible in the current climate of Rome which is becoming worse. We must not delude ourselves. The principles which now guide the conciliar Church are more and more overtly contrary to Catholic doctrine."

What would ABL say today, 24 years later?  
Are the principles which TODAY guide the conciliar Church ever more overtly contrary to Catholic doctrine, or what?

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A little later in the interview, Archbishop Lefebvre adds:

"Our true faithful, those who have understood the problem and who have precisely helped us to continue along the straight and firm path of Tradition and the Faith, were afraid of the approaches I made towards Rome. They told me it was dangerous and that I was wasting my time. Yes, of course, I hoped until the last minute that in Rome we would witness a little bit of loyalty. I cannot be blamed for not having done the maximum. So now too, to those who say to me, 'You’ve got to reach an agreement with Rome,' I think I can say that I went even further than I should have."

Is +Fellay now, when Rome is sunk ever further into Modernism, trying to do what ABL wouldn't have dared to do then, when Rome had appeared to him capable of "a little bit of loyalty?"  

If ABL had gone "even further than (he) should have," should +Fellay now attempt to do even MORE than that?

If ABL was convinced that he had "done the maximum," what would +Fellay do now, MORE than the maximum?

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And finally, regarding the Benedictines of La Barroux (and others) who capitulated to unconverted Rome:

"I think in any case they commit a serious mistake. They sinned seriously in acting the way they did, knowingly, and with an unreal nonchalance.

I have heard tell of some monks who intend leaving Le Barroux, saying they can no longer live in an atmosphere of lies. I wonder how they managed to stay as long as this in such an atmosphere." (Ibid)

Well, +Fellay has seen to this most deliberately, by KICKING OUT Society priests who dared to follow in the Tradition that was handed down to them from the Founder.

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How history repeats itself, with Menzingen and Kansas City declaring to the whole world there has been no compromise (and when a unilateral recognition comes from Rome, they will champion it all the more, hoping all the faithful miss all the compromises that have already taken place to "win" a unilateral recognition).

So you see, compromise is a reality all in the mind.  This perfectly conforms to the Modernist philosophy of Immanuel Kant.  He would be so proud of Menzingen and Kansas City today!

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In any case, please note this interview of the Archbishop was only two months prior to his death (when he already knew he was terminal, and would find it all the more urgent to preach the truth before meeting his Maker).

(Entire interview available here: http://www.therecusant.com/lefebvre-1991)

Suffice it to say, that while it may be true to say Archbishop Lefebvre always wanted a deal, the preconditions for his willingness to discuss a deal changed fundamentally in 1988: A practical accord (or what is more likely today, a unilateral recognition granted after sufficient compromises have been made to convince Rome of the SSPX's newfound harmlessness) was no longer on the table.  The conversion of Rome was now required.  That Menzingen was willing to depart from the proven prudence of the Society's founder in such a fundamental matter was the origin and genesis of the Resistance.


In true Modernist fashion, Menzingen and cronies purloin the word "prudence" and proudly proclaim that is what they're practicing when they push their accordist agenda, even though it directly conflicts with the last gasp of the fading saintly Founder who sacrificed his life for this cause of his fledgling Society.

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Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2015, 01:27:35 PM »
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This back-and-forth has gone on for 53 years, ever since the beginning (not the end) of Vat.II, and there is no end in sight.

The Sean Johnsons of the world would wage battle with the Fellayist Accordistas forever and ever, amen.

There is a reason that this argument began at the start of Vat.II, and that is because the start (not the end) of Vat.II is when the war of words was initiated.  

Pope John XXIII fired the opening salvo of this battle of wits with his most regrettable speech on October 11th, 1962, the Feast of the Maternity of Mary.  The next thing you know, Newchurch eliminated that Feast Day, perhaps to cover up the context of this infamous diatribe of "good pope John" (he wasn't very "good" just like "good Queen Bess" wasn't really "good" either - she murdered Catholics by the thousands).  

If you are not familiar with that stupid speech, you should read it because it gives us all we need to know about Vat.II before Vat.II had even happened.

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Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2015, 01:53:48 PM »
Hey Henry, still waiting for your reply....

Ten years ago our SSPX priest led a Eucharistic Procession to the steps of the local Novus Ordo parish. There we had Benediction in reperation for the many sins and blasphemy s against Our Lord. (Communion in the hand, Eucharistic Ministers, slovenly dressed parishioners...). What an example for my children! What a stand for the rights of Our Lord! Now what do you hear from the SSPX in reparation?....CRICKETS!

Henry, if there is more poison in the soup than ever, why does +Fellay now say it is okay to eat? He now says Religious Liberty is very limited, and the New Mass is legitimate. He says that SSPX must not act as bulldozers. When the guard dog, the very dog who is responsible to serve, protect and defend Christ the King stops barking, it is useless.

Why has +Fellay reduced the once barking SSPX into a whimpering puppy?

Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2015, 11:57:35 AM »
2) "A deal [with Rome] is what we want."

That this opinion flies squarely in the face of Archbishop Lefebvre's prudential precondition for an accord (i.e., the conversion of modernist Rome back to the Catholic faith) is sufficiently demonstrated above (particularly if you click the links and read the entire interviews, which I spared you in this email, as it will be lengthy enough as is).

#1 has already been rebutted.

But what Mr. Johnson confuses here is the desire for an agreement (viz. a principle) and the prudent act of accepting (or not) an agreement. It is obvious that the Society is in an irregular status: owning various properties, sending priests into dioceses without the local ordinary’s approval, the operation of supplied jurisdiction to validate some sacraments etc. Hence a desire for regularisation within the hierarchy must be a principle, but it is prudence that dictates whether any proposal is accepted. "A deal with Rome is what we want” - not at any cost to be sure – but it is what the Society has always wanted in principle, Mr. Johnson simply doesn't understand this.

Mr. Johnson propounds some “super” pre-condition that he (wrongly) attributes to the archbishop. He does not define it in concrete terms; he cannot (for one thing he lacks the competency) we’re just given a fluffy ‘conversion of Rome’. He does not define what a ‘conversion’ is - from what to what - or even the competent authority that will make the judgment. So what we have in reality is not a ‘prudential precondition’ since it undefined and limitless, but a pre-condition which amounts to a principle of no agreement with Rome under any circuмstance; they must join us - just like the Orthodox. This is, essentially, schism. Further, if Rome is not the Catholic Church (as her ‘conversion’ is required) then the refusal of any agreement cannot be a ‘prudential precondition’ since one could never seek an agreement with a false church under any circuмstances, therefore it must be a matter of principle, and yet the Archbishop did make an agreement with this false church.

Mr. Johnson now changes direction and advances the allegation that the Society has changed, but this too is easy to disprove. It has already been shown that the Archbishop was never against a practical accord if the Society could be sufficiently protected:

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”I would have indeed signed a definitive accord after signing the protocol if we had had the possibility of protecting ourselves effectively against the modernism of Rome." (Fideliter 68, March 1989)

And this ‘protection’ was always a corner stone of any agreement.  A comment on this very quote before the current round of SSPX/Rome discussion began appeared in the French district monthly publication ‘Notre Dame d’Aquitaine’ (March 2006) which confirms this:
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Un accord qui ne suppose aucune concession doctrinale, ni sur la Messe ni sur le Concile, n’est durable qu’avec une véritable protection à Rome et contre les évêques.


Mr. Johnson thinks 2002 to be a good year for Bp. Fellay. Well here is the bishop, or should I say a summary of a conference he gave that year at St Michael's School, England (6 May 2002) and appeared in the SSPX GB District Newsletter (‘Further Negotiations with Rome’, June/July 2002):

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His Lordship then summarized the content of his meeting with Cardinal Castrillon on 29 December 2000, during which the Cardinal suggested a personal prelature for the Society (like Opus Dei). Bishop Fellay said that if the Society were to enter into such an arrangement, it would still be obliged to fight against modernism, liberalism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. He also raised the recent treatment of the Society of St Peter as a reason for not trusting the Vatican, and its official policy of not attempting to convert the Old Catholics or the Orthodox.

The Bishop also gave an account of his five-minute meeting with the Pope, in which the latter expressed his happiness about the negotiations.

On his return from Rome, Bishop Fellay called a meeting with all the traditional Catholic bishops (including Bishop Rangel). It was decided that the bishops should request the lifting of the (false) excommunication, and permission for all priests, throughout the world to say the old Mass. This would remove the pretence that the old Mass had been abrogated, make it very difficult (if not impossible) to abrogate it in the future and would cause many graces to flow into the Church because of the increased celebration of the old rite. The answer from Rome to this request was that "Basically, the Pope does agree that the old Mass has never been abrogated and that all priests have the right to say it" but the request was refused because some of the older secretaries (of the Curia) "think that it would be an insult to Pope Paul VI and all the work that has been done for the new liturgy."

In this reply, Rome signaled that it was not prepared to defend the old Mass and so, Bishop Fellay decided to suspend further discussions.

Despite the breakdown in the discussions with Cardinal Castrillon, Cardinal Ratzinger has invited Bishop Fellay to doctrinal discussions. Although the Bishop felt that these might be more interesting, there would still be the difficulty of using words like 'truth', 'infallibility' and so on, that have come to mean different things for those in today's Vatican.


So there we have it. Over thirteen years ago the same practical agreement was on the table and Bp. Fellay was considering it and the only sticking point was the refusal of Rome to publically acknowledge that the Tridentine Mass had never been abrogated – he had secured it exclusively for the Society – but he knew that this crisis in the Church is bigger than just the Society; he wanted unrestricted use and access for all clerics and all the faithful. He refused to budge. Bravo Bishop Fellay!

So the same deal was offered in 2002, but where were all the objections then? I dare say a large chuck of those in the Resistance did not attend an SSPX chapel at that time (the editor of ‘The Recusant’ did not), but they believe themselves to be the authority on what the Society and her Superior General wanted and always wanted.

The Society always considered practical agreement put forward by Rome but she could never do this if there existed some super pre-condition; if Rome had agreed to publically state the old Mass had never been abrogated in 2002 there would have likely been an agreement.

This is more than sufficient to rebut Mr. Johnston’s 2nd point.

Response to an SSPX Priest - by Sean Johnson
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2015, 02:47:00 PM »
Henry4, how generous of you to pass judgment on your own ineptitude,,,,,,, uh, sorry, defense of the indefensible............................NOT.

Your unconvincing monologue goes nowhere.  

Your so-called argument is full of holes.  

So, it's evident you want to make a career out of this silliness.  Be my guest.

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