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Author Topic: Respectful correction  (Read 3145 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Respectful correction
« on: March 26, 2022, 08:48:24 PM »
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  • Amidst the recent emphasis on the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in our conversations, the most serious error unwittingly repeated here is the false labelling of the apparitions as a 'private revelation'.  Often used by opponents of the complete message of Our Lady, this error brings damaging effects.

    Attempting to disguise their error as traditional theology, these opponents divide all revelation between public revelation (Scripture, Tradition) and private revelation (communicated to an individual, and not binding on others).  Lying by omission, they do not mention the third category: public prophetic revelation.  St. Thomas explains, 'God sends prophets to every generation, not to give a new doctrine, but to direct human action.' (St. Thomas, IIa IIae, q. 174, a. 6 ad 3um). The Fifth Lateran Council defines the authority of judging public prophetic revelations as belonging to the pope alone. (Session 11).

    To clarify that she was addressing her message to each one of us, Our Lady announced the Miracle of the Sun several months in advance as a challenge to skeptics.  The miracle, witnessed by 70,000 people, and testified to by previous scoffers, cannot be relegated to the status of private revelation.

    The Devil, and those who share in his daily increasing triumphs in this wretched state of world affairs, are more aware of the meaning of the Fatima message than they make evident.  Deceiving faithful souls into imagining the apparitions as only a private revelation enables our fallen nature to embrace excuses for lack of prayer, penance, and positive action towards the realization of Heaven's commands revealed in the message, the only path out of the crisis in the Church and the world.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2022, 09:35:10 PM »
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  • Lying by omission…Deceiving faithful souls…

    There is nothing respectful about calling any of us liars and deceivers.

    Since you touted this alleged binding "third type" of revelation, I wondered, "How was that missed in so many years of pre-Vatican 2 schooling"?

    Certainly, the gloss from The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't compare to a Doctorate in Thomism, but it is a fair point of departure and it confirms what I recall being repeatedly taught in all those religion classes:

    Quote
    There are two kinds of revelations: (1) universal revelations, which are contained in the Bible or in the depositum of Apostolic tradition transmitted by the Church. These ended with the preaching of the Apostles and must be believed by all; (2) particular or private revelations which are constantly occurring among Christians (see CONTEMPLATION). When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them. Speaking of such revelations as (e.g.) those of St. Hildegard (approved in part by Eugenius III), St. Bridget (by Boniface IX), and St. Catherine of Siena (by Gregory XI) Benedict XIV says: "It is not obligatory nor even possible to give them the assent of Catholic faith, but only of human faith, in conformity with the dictates of prudence, which presents them to us as probable and worthy of pius belief)" (De canon., III, liii, xxii, II). https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

    Further:


    …The Fifth Lateran Council defines the authority of judging public prophetic revelations as belonging to the pope alone. (Session 11).…


    Well… Gee… We've had a few "Popes" lying and deceiving us about the content of the Third Secret and telling us Fatima is a done deal… but the latest heretic "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter has implicitly told the world that Russia has not really converted, so he's given us another charade.

    So, has your private interpretation of St. Thomas Aquinas been vetted by the Magisterium… or should we toss that "lying" and "deceiving" back in your snotty face?

    Show us BOTH (1) the Magisterium recognizes your special pleading of a binding third type of revelation AND (2) a true Pope has specifically bound us to Fatima when we cannot know that to which we are bound because no Pope has ever released the actual Third Secret.

    Maybe someone else is doing the "lying" and "deceiving,"  Jerk.


    Offline Charity

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2022, 09:51:45 PM »
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  • Offline NIFH

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2022, 11:02:41 PM »
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  • In the first sentence I hoped to express my belief that this error had been unwittingly repeated by well-intentioned faithful whose negative reception of the pope's recent action I have been edified by.

    The presence of prophets in the New Testament was declared by God through St. Paul: "to another, prophecy," (1 Cor. 12:10), and also throughout the Acts of the Apostles.  Our binding obligation to believe approved prophets is likewise expressed through St. Paul, "Despise not prophecies.  But prove all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thess. 5:20-1). The 'proving' is accomplished by the pope, as defined by the Fifth Lateran Council.

    The prophecies of Fatima were approved by an official act of the Church under Pius XI's express consent in 1930.  The pope's exercise of his apostolic authority determines what Catholics must believe, not personal remarks by scandalous successors.

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2022, 11:51:36 PM »
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  • The prophecies of Fatima were approved by an official act of the Church under Pius XI's express consent in 1930.  The pope's exercise of his apostolic authority determines what Catholics must believe, not personal remarks by scandalous successors.

    I personally believe in Fatima, but I would challenge you to show me any verbatim language of any Church docuмent that purports to bind me as a Catholic to believe in Fatima.  Being worthy of belief and being morally bound to a belief are not synonymous.  In effect, if I understand you correctly you are at the very least directly implying that a Catholic who is well informed about Fatima, but in spite of that knowingly refuses to consent to belief in Fatima commits a sin.  Preposterous!


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #5 on: March 27, 2022, 12:05:16 AM »
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  • https://fatima.org/approvals-by-the-popes/

    With the knowledge and consent of Pope Pius XI, on October 13, 1930 Bishop da Silva of Leiria (the diocese in which Fatima is contained) announced the results of the official inquiry of Fatima in a pastoral letter on the apparitions. This official approval contained these important paragraphs:

    Quote
    In virtue of considerations made known, and others which for reason of brevity we omit; humbly invoking the Divine Spirit and placing ourselves under the protection of the most Holy Virgin, and after hearing the opinions of our Rev. Advisors in this diocese, we hereby:

    • Declare worthy of belief, the visions of the shepherd children in the Cova da Iria, parish of Fatima, in this diocese, from the 13th May to 13th October, 1917.
    • Permit officially the cult of Our Lady of Fatima.
    We MAY safely believe in the apparitions. This is what was conveyed to us, not by Pope Pius XI but by the Bishop of Leiria. There is no obligation to believe, though I do.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #6 on: March 27, 2022, 12:13:24 AM »
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  • In the first sentence I hoped to express my belief that this error had been unwittingly repeated by well-intentioned faithful whose negative reception of the pope's recent action I have been edified by.

    I suppose that is some kind of half-baked disclaimer/apology though you quickly segued into "lying" and "deceiving."

    The presence of prophets in the New Testament was declared by God through St. Paul: "to another, prophecy," (1 Cor. 12:10), and also throughout the Acts of the Apostles. 

    The verse you explicitly cited describes numerous charisms, but not one word of binding us to those gifts in men.

    Our binding obligation to believe approved prophets is likewise expressed through St. Paul, "Despise not prophecies.  But prove all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thess. 5:20-1). The 'proving' is accomplished by the pope, as defined by the Fifth Lateran Council.

    "[P]rove all things… [including the prophesies in the preceding verse]" exhorts skepticism, not gullibility, not binding at all.

    The prophecies of Fatima were approved by an official act of the Church under Pius XI's express consent in 1930.  The pope's exercise of his apostolic authority determines what Catholics must believe, not personal remarks by scandalous successors.

    As the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia expresses with excruciating clarity, we are not bound to private revelations. The papal approval only informs us that the apparition(s) do not transgress the Faith and the papal approval in no way binds us to the apparition(s).

    So, we are free to be skeptical and bound to no private revelation.

    Your claimed "third" type of revelation is only your [weak, dubious] inference, not at all the clarity of authentic Magisterium.

    I am among those "opponents" (liar? deceiver?) who, though I believe of Fatima what my Pauline skepticism allows (Hell, sins of the flesh, light in the sky at the onset of World War 2), recognize that we do not know the full contents of Fatima.  Do you bind me to the unknown? …to your speculation? …to my own speculation? …to the patently absurd claims of Wojtyla the Second Worst?

    You cannot bind anyone to the unknown.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #7 on: March 27, 2022, 12:14:14 AM »
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  • I personally believe in Fatima, but I would challenge you to show me any verbatim language of any Church docuмent that purports to bind me as a Catholic to believe in Fatima.  Being worthy of belief and being morally bound to a belief are not synonymous.  In effect, if I understand you correctly you are at the very least directly implying that a Catholic who is well informed about Fatima, but in spite of that knowingly refuses to consent to belief in Fatima commits a sin.  Preposterous!
    Precisely so!


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #8 on: March 27, 2022, 12:15:19 AM »
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  • We MAY safely believe in the apparitions. …There is no obligation to believe…
    Also precisely so.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #9 on: March 27, 2022, 12:20:06 AM »
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  • Quote
    …opponents of the complete message of Our Lady…
    And what complete message is that??? Please be so kind as to share the verbatim Third Secret.

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #10 on: March 27, 2022, 12:31:01 AM »
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  • https://fatima.org/approvals-by-the-popes/

    With the knowledge and consent of Pope Pius XI, on October 13, 1930 Bishop da Silva of Leiria (the diocese in which Fatima is contained) announced the results of the official inquiry of Fatima in a pastoral letter on the apparitions. This official approval contained these important paragraphs:
    We MAY safely believe in the apparitions. This is what was conveyed to us, not by Pope Pius XI but by the Bishop of Leiria. There is no obligation to believe, though I do.

    Amen!  Thank you Nadir.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #11 on: March 27, 2022, 02:03:47 PM »
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  • As you have made clear to me, my incompetence in expressing myself has blurred the distinction between the guilt of those consciously employing this error to stall the efforts of Our Lady's apostles, and the innocence of those who are unwittingly deceived by this error.

    The verse from Corinthians is God's assurance of the presence of prophets.  The verse from Thessalonians enunciates His binding command to believe approved prophets.  The passage from the Council enlightens us on how to recognize which prophets fall under God's command from Thessalonians.  The Council's wording makes clear that the subject in question is this third type revelation taught by St. Thomas.  Such revelations are thus morally binding, in contrast with private revelations, which bind no one but the recipient.

    In the practical order, the popes have decided to delegate the proving of public prophetic revelations to the local bishop, through whom, by extension, the pope approves these revelations, with the pope's specific, individual consent.

    The crime of concealing the third part of the Secret of Fatima has kept Our Lady's message to us from reaching us.  We are bound to believe that it is Heaven's word, and the specifics within will be binding when we learn what they are.  Similarly, once we have read in Scripture that David was the son of Jesse, we are only then bound to believe it with divine and Catholic Faith. (St. Thomas, IIa IIae, q. 2 a. 5)

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #12 on: March 27, 2022, 03:54:59 PM »
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  • As you have made clear to me, my incompetence in expressing myself has blurred the distinction between the guilt of those consciously employing this error to stall the efforts of Our Lady's apostles, and the innocence of those who are unwittingly deceived by this error.

    Some apology (pffft)—No allowance for Catholics of good will who recognize that objectively you are wrong.

    You have adduced NO MAGISTERIUM that we are bound to private revelation.

    You have adduced NO MAGISTERIUM that there is a "third" type of revelation.

    The verse from Corinthians is God's assurance of the presence of prophets. 

    So what? That is not news even to Catholic kindergarteners who know of the Prophets.

    The verse from Thessalonians enunciates His binding command to believe approved prophets. 

    You repeat your inference, a private interpretation. I repeat the antidote:

    "[P]rove all things… [including the prophesies in the preceding verse]" exhorts skepticism, not gullibility, not binding at all.


    Your inference is not consistent with the plain unambiguous language of the verse.


    The passage from the Council enlightens us on how to recognize which prophets fall under God's command from Thessalonians.  The Council's wording makes clear that the subject in question is this third type revelation taught by St. Thomas. 

    The phrase "public prophetic" does not appear even once in Session 11. https://catholicendtimetruths.com/fifth-lateran-council-future-evils-antichrist-judgment-day/12/07/2015

    Quite contrary to your misrepresentation of Session 11, it is a lengthy and just diatribe against private interpretations reiterating exactly what your "opponents" say.


    false prophets …Reliable report has it, rather, that they are preaching many and various things contrary to the teachings and examples which we have mentioned, sometimes with scandal to the people. …for their own self-display …that would make true the words of the Apostle writing to Timothy: For, a time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching but, having itching ears, they will accuмulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. …twisting the sense of scripture in many places, often giving it rash and false interpretations, they preach what is false; they threaten, describe and assert to be present, totally unsupported by legitimate proofs and merely following their own private interpretation… what is more appalling, they dare to claim that they possess this information from the light of eternity and by the guidance and grace of the holy Spirit.

    …When these preachers spread this medley of fraud and error, backed by the false testimony of alleged miracles, the congregations whom they ought to be carefully instructing in the gospel message, and retaining and preserving in the true faith, are withdrawn by their sermons from the teaching and commands of the universal church. … they turn aside from the official sacred teachings…

    …the meaning of words is often lost when the hearts of the audience are bruised by too urgent and careless forms of speech.

    …invented miracles, new and false prophecies and other frivolities hardly distinguishable from old wives’ tales

    …We command all who undertake this task of preaching, or will later undertake it, to preach and expound the gospel truth and holy scripture in accordance with the exposition, interpretation and commentaries that the church or long use has approved…

    …They are in no way to presume to preach or declare a Fixed Time for Future Evils, the Coming of ANTI-CHRIST or the precise day, (date setting) of judgment; for Truth says, it is not for us to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. Let it be known that those who have hitherto dared to declare such things are liars, and that because of them not a little authority has been taken away from those who preach the truth.

    …nor that strange and empty predictions are matters which must be firmly asserted or held in some other way

    Finally, after the long condemnation of private interpretation, a rather timid and very circuмscribed mention of prophesy:

    Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, we have no wish for them to be counted with the other group of story-tellers and liars or to be otherwise hindered. …credence must not be easily given to every spirit and, as the Apostle states, the spirits have to be tested to see whether they come from God. It is therefore our will that as from now, by common law, alleged inspirations of this kind, before they are published, or preached to the people, are to be understood as reserved for examination by the apostolic see.…

    Nothing newsworthy or controversial at all:

    • private revelation deserves great skepticism "tested"
    • do not despise prophesy approved by the Pope (or delegated bishop)
    • not binding at all beyond what is already in public revelation and the Magisterium
    • the docuмent creates no "third" type of revelation.

    Your own references reject your errors.



    Such revelations are thus morally binding, in contrast with private revelations, which bind no one but the recipient.

    Nowhere do any of your references bind us to private revelation per se.

    In the practical order, the popes have decided to delegate the proving of public prophetic revelations to the local bishop, through whom, by extension, the pope approves these revelations, with the pope's specific, individual consent.

    So what? Old news.

    The crime of concealing the third part of the Secret of Fatima has kept Our Lady's message to us from reaching us.  We are bound to believe that it is Heaven's word, and the specifics within will be binding when we learn what they are.  Similarly, once we have read in Scripture that David was the son of Jesse, we are only then bound to believe it with divine and Catholic Faith. (St. Thomas, IIa IIae, q. 2 a. 5)

    Though you repeat yourself ad nauseam, we are not bound to private revelation beyond what is already in the Deposit of Faith.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #13 on: March 27, 2022, 04:06:25 PM »
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  • Amidst the recent emphasis on the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in our conversations, the most serious error unwittingly repeated here is the false labelling of the apparitions as a 'private revelation'.  Often used by opponents of the complete message of Our Lady, this error brings damaging effects.
    I do not get it. What is wrong with the above statement that the person gets all of the down votes? Do the downvoters and objecting writers not believe in Fatima? Do they think it is not worthy of belief, it is no big deal? Or are they "opponents of the complete message of Our Lady"?

    They do not explain.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Respectful correction
    « Reply #14 on: March 27, 2022, 04:15:11 PM »
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  • To NIFH, 
    Please cut and paste the portion of the Lateran Council section 11 that is pertinent. My brief attempt at finding it did not yield anything satisfactory to me. 

    Let's stop with the down votes people and just plain discuss things. I'll decide for myself, not you decide for me.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.