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Author Topic: Resistance Split  (Read 27256 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2014, 05:30:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    (Fr.) Pfeiffer needs to beg forgiveness for his scandalous behavior and by all means take a backseat for awhile.


    I'm not certain that Fr. P. needs to ask forgiveness of anyone.  I'm not even certain that his behavior is "scandalous."  But I am sure of this:  He accuses Bp. Fellay of not taking the lead, or of refusing to be the "leader" of a "resistance," movement which Fr. P. defines and attempts to carry out. So Father becomes the leader by default.


    Offline Adolphus

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    « Reply #16 on: December 28, 2014, 05:53:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Quote
    (Fr.) Pfeiffer needs to beg forgiveness for his scandalous behavior and by all means take a backseat for awhile.


    I'm not certain that Fr. P. needs to ask forgiveness of anyone.  I'm not even certain that his behavior is "scandalous."  But I am sure of this:  He accuses Bp. Fellay Williamson of not taking the lead, or of refusing to be the "leader" of a "resistance," movement which Fr. P. defines and attempts to carry out. So Father becomes the leader by default.

    Bp. Williamson knows he does not have authority and therefore he refuses to be the leader.  He knows that anything he does or says could cause division (either because it is wrong or just because some disagree) and the lack of authority would make easy one split after another split.

    With that kind of leadership, what could he do?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #17 on: December 28, 2014, 06:41:15 PM »
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  • Hollingsworth is defending Fr. P against Bishop Williamson and Adolphus steps up to defend Bishop Williamson or did I just misunderstand all of this?

    Y'all are confusing me. I seemed to think that your position were the other way around.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline hollingsworth

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    « Reply #18 on: December 28, 2014, 07:25:39 PM »
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  • Centro:
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    Hollingsworth is defending Fr. P against Bishop Williamson and Adolphus steps up to defend Bishop Williamson or did I just misunderstand all of this?

    Y'all are confusing me. I seemed to think that your position were the other way around.


    Not quite.  I'm not defending Fr. P "against" Bp. W.  I am merely suggesting that the charges leveled against Fr. P. may not be entirely accurate.  I'm saying merely that Fr. P. has gone out on his own.  He has certainly gotten ahead of the only bishop, who at least formerly, gave him some moral support.  He's losing much of that.   He's on his own basically, without any real Episcopal backing.  Does he need to ask forgiveness for this?  You decide.  Is his behavior "scandalous?"  Again, you decide.  We have decided that his "resistance" movement doesn't really have a prayer.  He has no support, of course, from sspx.  He has no support, of course, from New Church.  And now, more and more, he has much diminished support from the only bishop left to give him a modicuм of legitimacy.  If my analysis is wrong, please correct me. :thinking:

    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #19 on: December 28, 2014, 07:56:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Centro:
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    Hollingsworth is defending Fr. P against Bishop Williamson and Adolphus steps up to defend Bishop Williamson or did I just misunderstand all of this?

    Y'all are confusing me. I seemed to think that your position were the other way around.


    Not quite.  I'm not defending Fr. P "against" Bp. W.  I am merely suggesting that the charges leveled against Fr. P. may not be entirely accurate.  I'm saying merely that Fr. P. has gone out on his own.  He has certainly gotten ahead of the only bishop, who at least formerly, gave him some moral support.  He's losing much of that.   He's on his own basically, without any real Episcopal backing.  Does he need to ask forgiveness for this?  You decide.  Is his behavior "scandalous?"  Again, you decide.  We have decided that his "resistance" movement doesn't really have a prayer.  He has no support, of course, from sspx.  He has no support, of course, from New Church.  And now, more and more, he has much diminished support from the only bishop left to give him a modicuм of legitimacy.  If my analysis is wrong, please correct me. :thinking:


    I don't know if I want to say that you are wrong about what you are saying, except for perhaps the wording of the last line. It would have been more accurate to state "diminshed support for the only bishop", instead of "from". I don't really want to go into too much detail. I think everyone has seen the Canadian conferences given by each which were posted on all these forums in November. There is a story behind them.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 11:31:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    As for the comments about obesity, you're entirely out of line; you're not in any position to make any kind of moral judgment about what led to it.  In fact, mortification can lead to a slow-down of metabolism.  Stress, due to long hours and lack of sleep, can increase cortisol levels, which contributes to fat storage.


    Yes metabolism does slow down, that's why you don't overeat after fasting. The man is easily 100+ pounds overweight, you'll never get that way by fasting on a regular basis. At this point he would probably need surgery to get out of the hole he's in. His life is hanging in the balance.

    Quote
    In addition, someone fasting on bread and water will actually put on weight because carbs become blood sugar and mess with insulin production and fat storage.  I've known quite a few people who are overweight simply because they have mostly carbs in their diet ... because they're cheaper than meats and fats ... and not because they eat an inordinate amount of food.  My oldest son can eat 10,000 calories day and he's rail thin ... just can't put on weight despite the fact that he eats more than the rest of my kids combined.  Other people can just look at a piece of pie and put on five pounds.  So you have no idea about why Father Pfeiffer is overweight.


    He's way more than a little overweight. All you have to do is look at younger pics of him. He looks like he's smuggling an extra priest under that cassock! Or like Hewko might say he's entered into the "fullness of the priesthood" and then some.  He's morbidly obese because that kind of extra weight will kill you very quickly. Only one more reason to step down and focus on his health.

    As for the moral component, he's done it to himself. Here's the thing: If Pfeiffer demands utter allegiance and perfection from other resistance priests, why shouldn't we call upon him to get his life together? I'm not listening to another hour+ long screed about other priests whether it be Zendejas or Williamson. He's a bitter uncharitable mess and I've had it. Show me one, just one sermon on prayer and fasting by him. Show me! His utter lack of charity indicates a grave lack of fundamentals in his spiritual life.  He's channeling a Martin Luther not a Gregory Hesse or a Columba Marmion. If he had a tenth of the intellect and spiritual gifts those men had, his extra weight might have served as a cross to humble him but he is ravenous.

    I'll never forget how he stampeded all over Zendejas, airing his differences with his fellow priests in public when it should have remained private and speaking of going public, his reprehensible treatment of the various resistance coordinators through Pablo. Don't follow him down into the ditch because that's where he's headed.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Adolphus

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    « Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 12:57:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    As for the comments about obesity, you're entirely out of line; you're not in any position to make any kind of moral judgment about what led to it.  In fact, mortification can lead to a slow-down of metabolism.  Stress, due to long hours and lack of sleep, can increase cortisol levels, which contributes to fat storage.


    Yes metabolism does slow down, that's why you don't overeat after fasting. The man is easily 100+ pounds overweight, you'll never get that way by fasting on a regular basis. At this point he would probably need surgery to get out of the hole he's in. His life is hanging in the balance.

    Quote
    In addition, someone fasting on bread and water will actually put on weight because carbs become blood sugar and mess with insulin production and fat storage.  I've known quite a few people who are overweight simply because they have mostly carbs in their diet ... because they're cheaper than meats and fats ... and not because they eat an inordinate amount of food.  My oldest son can eat 10,000 calories day and he's rail thin ... just can't put on weight despite the fact that he eats more than the rest of my kids combined.  Other people can just look at a piece of pie and put on five pounds.  So you have no idea about why Father Pfeiffer is overweight.


    He's way more than a little overweight. All you have to do is look at younger pics of him. He looks like he's smuggling an extra priest under that cassock! Or like Hewko might say he's entered into the "fullness of the priesthood" and then some.  He's morbidly obese because that kind of extra weight will kill you very quickly. Only one more reason to step down and focus on his health.

    As for the moral component, he's done it to himself. Here's the thing: If Pfeiffer demands utter allegiance and perfection from other resistance priests, why shouldn't we call upon him to get his life together? I'm not listening to another hour+ long screed about other priests whether it be Zendejas or Williamson. He's a bitter uncharitable mess and I've had it. Show me one, just one sermon on prayer and fasting by him. Show me! His utter lack of charity indicates a grave lack of fundamentals in his spiritual life.  He's channeling a Martin Luther not a Gregory Hesse or a Columba Marmion. If he had a tenth of the intellect and spiritual gifts those men had, his extra weight might have served as a cross to humble him but he is ravenous.

    I'll never forget how he stampeded all over Zendejas, airing his differences with his fellow priests in public when it should have remained private and speaking of going public, his reprehensible treatment of the various resistance coordinators through Pablo. Don't follow him down into the ditch because that's where he's headed.

    Why do you call them Pfeiffer, Hewko, Zendejas, Williamson?  Don't you think they deserve to be given the title of priests and bishop?

    Offline hollingsworth

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    « Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 01:12:04 PM »
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  • Croixalist:
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    He's a bitter uncharitable mess and I've had it. Show me one, just one sermon on prayer and fasting by him. Show me! His utter lack of charity indicates a grave lack of fundamentals in his spiritual life.  He's channeling a Martin Luther not a Gregory Hesse or a Columba Marmion. If he had a tenth of the intellect and spiritual gifts those men had, his extra weight might have served as a cross to humble him but he is ravenous.

    I'll never forget how he stampeded all over Zendejas, airing his differences with his fellow priests in public when it should have remained private and speaking of going public, his reprehensible treatment of the various resistance coordinators through Pablo. Don't follow him down into the ditch because that's where he's headed.


    Well, we've had it too- for some time now.  But remember this:  No traditional Catholic comes out as a winner on this.  Even if what you say about Fr. P. is spot on, we all lose ground.  Yes, I believe as you do that Father is "channeling" Martin Luther.  He is not following in the train of his holy Catholic predecessors.  He's aired his differences not only with fellow priests, but with simple lay people like myself.  So where does that leave many of us?  Can we declare victory just because some of us have managed to get disentangled from Fr. P?  Hardly!  Now the struggle intensifies even more, sad to say.  None of us ought to be happy in the face of your comments.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 01:31:37 PM »
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  • My gosh, why not pray for him, for the sake of his soul. Trashing any personal problems not related to Catholic discussion is not going to do any good for anybody. It's also taking credit away from those of us who do oppose his non una cuм fratribus Sancti Pii X position on logical grounds.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 02:03:21 PM »
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  • Dear Lord!  What a sad commentary upon the so called Traditional movement, derisions, disputations, backbiting, sectarianism, accommodations to the council, sniping, canonically defective "religious" orders, hero worship, pride, and the ethereals of secondary visions.

    A great disappointment and scandal.


    Offline AJNC

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    « Reply #25 on: December 29, 2014, 11:56:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Dear Lord!  What a sad commentary upon the so called Traditional movement, derisions, disputations, backbiting, sectarianism, accommodations to the council, sniping, canonically defective "religious" orders, hero worship, pride, and the ethereals of secondary visions.

    A great disappointment and scandal.


    You are right, but what is the solution? As far as I am concerned some of the problems are caused by the Traditional priests themselves.  I've experienced such men over the years in India. Legends in their own lunchtimes.


    Offline peterp

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    « Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 04:51:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Francisco
    Quote from: Lepanto Again
    Quote from: peterp
    Catching up with news from friends over Christmas. There is now a clear split in the Resistance. In England “The Recusant” have fallen in to line behind Fr. Pfiffer and Bp. Williamson has been told that he can no longer say Mass for them. Bp. Williamson supporters (mainly those who follow him for his secular views) are continuing to assist at SSPX Masses. Neither is Fr. Abraham welcome to say Mass for the Recusant (because of his una cuм views)? The editorial of the magazine is no longer being written by Bp. Williamson’s righthand layman. The website & magazine  will no doubt be update in due course and remove support for the St. Marcel Initiative.

    It seems the battle lines are being drawn; it’s a new organization vs. independent only priests and it is time to choose sides.


    This happens in all forms of Protestantism


    This Resistance split has only occurred in Britain.


    This is not quite true. In North America the Canadians have made it clear who they are following and in the US the division over the behavior of Fr. Zendejas shows sides are being taken.

    In Europe those groups who took Bp. Williamson side – a loose association – and are not following blindly because they agree with his secular views, are turning Sede Vacantist: Germans, Austrians, Hungarians. As Bp. Williamson said, “the Resistance is a disaster”. There's basically a three-way split. It will be interesting to read the next Recusant update.

    Offline ggreg

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    « Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »
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  • Depends where you are, I guess, but I know many an unemployed resistance member.

    Small Groups as Complex Systems: Formation, Coordination, Development, and ...
     By Holly Arrow, Joseph E. McGrath, Jennifer L. Berdahl is a good book on group dynamics.

    Also worth listening to a 2013 podcast by Dan Carlin on the Anabaptists which has a LOT of close parallels. I think it is called Hardcore History number 48.

    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 09:29:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Croixalist:
    Quote
    He's a bitter uncharitable mess and I've had it. Show me one, just one sermon on prayer and fasting by him. Show me! His utter lack of charity indicates a grave lack of fundamentals in his spiritual life.  He's channeling a Martin Luther not a Gregory Hesse or a Columba Marmion. If he had a tenth of the intellect and spiritual gifts those men had, his extra weight might have served as a cross to humble him but he is ravenous.

    I'll never forget how he stampeded all over Zendejas, airing his differences with his fellow priests in public when it should have remained private and speaking of going public, his reprehensible treatment of the various resistance coordinators through Pablo. Don't follow him down into the ditch because that's where he's headed.


    Well, we've had it too- for some time now.  But remember this:  No traditional Catholic comes out as a winner on this.  Even if what you say about Fr. P. is spot on, we all lose ground.  Yes, I believe as you do that Father is "channeling" Martin Luther.  He is not following in the train of his holy Catholic predecessors.  He's aired his differences not only with fellow priests, but with simple lay people like myself.  So where does that leave many of us?  Can we declare victory just because some of us have managed to get disentangled from Fr. P?  Hardly!  Now the struggle intensifies even more, sad to say.  None of us ought to be happy in the face of your comments.

     
    Just stay away from him and don't listen to him in the state he's in. The resistance needed to happen, it certainly helped Fellay backtrack abit, but it's already falling apart due to the open squabbling and petty attacks we've seen coming from his camp. My sympathies if he's the only priest available to you. I hope and pray Pfeiffer does come to his senses and tries to repair the harm he's done. At this point in time, it's hard to argue his actions haven't been devastating to the overall effort. Fellay couldn't have done a better job if he paid him.

    Adolphus, feel free to add "Father" and "Bishop" where appropriate while reading. It's my internet shorthand, no offense intended!
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    « Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 10:47:59 AM »
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  • The recent Synod on families in Rome showed us Cardinals against Cardinals ...
    There would be no "resistance" if it wasn't for Vatican ll.
    if it wasn't for the SSPX, there wouldn't be any Latin Mass.

    The SSPX was created during Vatican II and was within Vatican II until 1988 when the SSPX was unofficially shunned and ostracized.  Archbishop Lefebvre didn't want this.  Archbishop Lefebvre loved God, our blessed Mother and the Catholic Church.  

    I know what is to be shunned.  We were shunned by our NO parish when the priest was lying to justify the closings and mergers and even before that. Then we attend filled out register forms not once but three times at SSPX chapel and tithe and aren't even on parish list and not even considered members of the chapel.  There were other incidents too.  It seems hypocritical.

    We were never shunned by the resistance or other SSPX chapels.  Just received a beautiful Christmas card from Father Pfieffer.   Father Emily was very kind and mailed us a miraculous medal.  


    If you look at the past history of the Catholic Church,there were problems with Popes and divisions.  The devil attacks everyone.  

    I'm not perfect.  I'n overweight.  I'm a sinner.   The devil is after me. I often wondered if I should be exorcized for real. Maybe we all need to be. Rome needs to be exorcized. The devil is after all of us.
    We can't continue like this.  It isn't Catholic.  The four marks of the Church are one, Holy, Catholic , apostolic Church.  

    Only God knows the future.  Don't be obsessed with mystics and books.

    Dear God : please guide us and protect us.  
    Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners...
    St Pope Pius X , pray for us
    Archbishop Lefebvre, pray for us.  
    St John Neumann Bishop of Philadelphia, pray for us.
















    May God bless you and keep you