Good to hear some good news. Does anyone know where the priest will be stationed?It appears we will have to wait a little longer... I think we are only dealing with Tonsure and Minor Orders here.
It appears we will have to wait a little longer... I think we are only dealing with Tonsure and Minor Orders here.Ah, ok thank you for the clarification.
Good to hear some good news. Does anyone know where the priest will be stationed?Apparently not priestly ordination. It it was to minor orders, but not much information as to how many were ordained and to which orders.
Would Bishop Williamson be considered an independent like what was being talked about above regarding independent priests and ABL requiring priests to be part of a religious society if he is going to ordain them?Bishop Williamson did not choose independence but had it thrust on him. He cannot unbishop himself. He could not be considered indepent in the sense of the sermon.
Would Bishop Williamson be considered an independent like what was being talked about above regarding independent priests and ABL requiring priests to be part of a religious society if he is going to ordain them?There is a particular kind of priest that wants to be independent, like the seminarians refused ordination by ABL. They are happy in their own little world or backyard shed, answerable to no one, isolated from the rest of the Catholic world, no concept of the fight for the Faith. It has the feeling of a little schismatic church. It is not a legitimate canonical situation. Why would any priest want such an existence?
Here more information about yesterday's ceremony:
https://apotresdejesusetdemarie.fr/tonsures-mineurs-zendejas-4-mars-2023/ (https://apotresdejesusetdemarie.fr/tonsures-mineurs-zendejas-4-mars-2023/)
The link mentions a Franciscan friar receiving the tonsure.
Until now, there were no fully Resistance Franciscans.
The Capuchins of Morgon (France) had been on and off the fence for 10 years, but if this is one of them, it would be the first time that they have sought out the sacraments from Resistance bishops.
It could also suggest that things between Morgon and Menzingen have once again deteriorated.
Guess I'll have to look into this, because it could be rather significant, if so (i.e., last time I checkd, the Capuchins had about 35+ friars and priests).
As Archbishop Lefebvre said in his sermon of 1988 Episcopal Consecrations, in order to ordain Catholic Priests, we need Catholic Bishops. And in his conferences afterwards, he mentioned that before the ceremony of June 30th, some bishops and cardinals contacted him asking him the possibility of doing the Episcopal Consecrations in private, keeping photos and records in secret, and after his death the new bishops could unveil the secrecy..
Sermon Minor Ordinations 2023
March 4, Avrillé, France
In the name of the Father, of the Son, and the Holy Ghost,
Your Excellency, Priests, seminarians, brothers and sisters,..
Dear Brethren, and to all who have offered his own life for Christ the King’s sake, for His Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.
Oportet Illum Regnare! Says Saint Paul (1Cor. 15,25) He must reign, until He has put all enemies under his feet. And Saint John says, “My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jєωs: but Kingdom is not from hence.” (John 18, 36) Truly, Our Lord’s Kingdom is transcendent beyond this world. Since His Nativity when He still was in the manger at Bethlehem, the three Wisemen looked after him asking where is he who is born the King of the Jєωs? (Mt 2,2) And before His sublime sacrifice, Pontius Pilate asked Him: Are you then a King? Jesus answered, You say that I am a King. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth; everyone that is of the truth, hear my voice (John 18,37) As it was then Pilate’s answered, today nations and people are still questioning: What is truth? (18,38) Our Lord has already responded: “This is life everlasting, that all whom they may Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent…..; He continues - While I was with them, I kept them in thy name…; He concludes - I do not ask that Thou take them away out of the world but that Thou preserve them from evil…. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.” (John 17)
It is to you, my dear Militants of Christendom, whom I address these words under the patronage of Saint Joan of Arc’s words - Ours is the struggle, God’s is the Victory! As we know there is fight between GOOD and EVIL, between the children of the Woman and the children of satan. So, we should be aware of how to avoid evil. But, what is evil? It is the absence of good. Indeed, Catholic families belong to the Woman, to the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Your families are the salt of earth and the candle stick where the light of world, Our Lord Jesus Christ, shines from in the midst of the darkness and confusion. In your families there should be men wanting to install the law of the Gospel at home; and women convenience in rooting the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience by practicing the virtue of religion. YES! Your families are nests of Christendom. From where will vocations come to the religious life? From where would boys and girls like to be the children of God who believe in creation and not in evolution.? From where will young men and women want to believe that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church? From where Militant Catholics will want to believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the only Savior of the world working out the Mystery of eternal Redemption? Certainly from these families who proclaim Our Lord Jesus Christ as a King and Master of Christendom; but we should ask Him to preserve us from Evil. That’s why, my dear parents, do not let evil come into your home. Therefore, in this perspective let me put three points to your considerations.:1) Our fight against practical Modernism; 2) Let’s be aware of today’s Cultural Revolution; 3) Let’s restore the Social and Royal Kinship of Christ.
1) Practical Modernism:
Needless to say that Modernism is not a theory that we should have to learn in abstract; otherwise it is a subtle teaching, real and concrete, so that it reflects the way we think and believe because compromises the principles of our Catholic Church in Faith and morality. It is a dialectic mental structure pursuing to divide people’s mind that makes us free to an independent attitude of oneself towards the duties of our state of life. Truly, as one of the milestone of Vatican II Council, Religious Liberty teaching is a principle in action which divides individuals and families or countries.
In this sense, the Modernist churchmen still are in control of the levers of powers in Rome since 1960’s; the actual regnant Pope today is a crystal clear application of this Modernist teaching, not only for his protestant and liberal inclination but also for his romantic pagan and humanistic dysfunction. Sister Lucy of Fatima was given special light from heaven to warn the world in the 1950’s of a terrible crisis that would almost overwhelm the Church in the 1960’s. In fact, this was the Second Vatican Council, the Modernist Triumph; certainly a “Diabolical Disorientation” is a very good two-word description of how the Devil succeeded in confusing the minds of the leading churchmen that they completely changed the direction of the Catholic Church. Instead of teaching to souls how to get to the eternal salvation in heaven by Our Lord Jesus Christ, the “Church of Christ subsistent in the Catholic Church” would from now on, like Communism, seek to build Paradise on earth. The result was such a complete falsification of the Catholic Church that one needs a new name for it - the Newchurch.
The Modernists look after a reconciliation between God and the absence of God, like darkness is the absence of light, once a dialectic spectrum is evolved, then several different concepts are formulated from one extreme opposed to another having as many compromising opinions in between them, like it is a gray color in the spectrum between black-and-white. This is the scenario displayed concerning the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by Pope Benedict XVI 2007 Motu Propio: an Extraordinary Latin Mass Rite (never abrogated) referred to the Ordinary Newmass Rite (never promulgated) as an expression made by the Hermeneutic of Continuity in the Catholic Faith. This has been a trap in order to speak the same terminology of the Modernist in Rome in which many bishops, and priests, and faithful are caught in the spectrum created by to the Newchurch. Actually, it has been the downfall of today’s Superiors of the SSPX among many others. Once accepted together with the lifting of the excommunications, it was smooth way to accept other concessions like the universal jurisdiction to hear confessions and the delegated faculties by the Local Newchurch bishops to celebrate Matrimonies, and so forth.. In fact, on March 3rd, 2012, the SSPX general Superior publicly announced his purpose to change the dealing policies between them and the Roman Authorities into a Practical Agreement an first instance, instead of a Doctrinal Agreement towards the teaching of the Tradition of the Catholic Church.
Another practical example has been the function of a spontaneous independent priest wanting to celebrate the Latin Mass throughout any venue like the Thuc-Line, or Menendez-Line, or Indult/Motu Propio line or SSPX or Resistance, and any other case it might be. From the Apostolic time the Catholic Church is known to be visible church and for that purpose to give a guarantee in the administration of valid sacraments in order to receive the sacramental grace instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ. Since Vatican II Council there have been numerous independent priests surviving to say the Latin Mass; some of them were ordained in pre-vatican II time, others come from the sedevantis line, some others after 2007 motu propio, others from Novus Ordo into Tradition or those who left any Eclessia Dei Commission group, or SSPX, or Resistance, or you name them…
Dear Faithful, you are presently sharing the Operation Survival of Archbishop Lefebvre, in the sense that many of you are surviving to practice in your Catholic Faith. What priest you suppose to believe? Where to go to Mass and who to receive Sacraments from? Why there are many independent priests? And independent bishops? Does this chaos stem from any practical Modernist principle?
As Archbishop Lefebvre said in his sermon of 1988 Episcopal Consecrations, in order to ordain Catholic Priests, we need Catholic Bishops. And in his conferences afterwards, he mentioned that before the ceremony of June 30th, some bishops and cardinals contacted him asking him the possibility of doing the Episcopal Consecrations in private, keeping photos and records in secret, and after his death the new bishops could unveil the secrecy. The Archbishop responded to them, that the crisis within the Catholic Church is public in such a way that the remedy given must also be publicly, in particular for the sake of the faithful who must be confirmed and supported in the Catholic Faith. He added, “secret things come from devil, public things come from God.”
In regards to an independent priest he said, “Because of the difficult situation in the Church, I have received letters several times from people asking me to ordain them priests yet without asking to enter the Society. I always refuse. It was the case of a deacon who told me, “I have done all my studies, I have completed my formation. Why won’t you ordain me?” And he gave me letters of recommendation from various priests. I said no, that he had to be a member of a religious society. If he wanted to become a member of the Society or of a group which would normally be recognized by the Church, then yes, but otherwise it is not possible. It is absolutely contrary to canon law. And I do not want to act against canon law.” (Priestly Holiness, ABL, Towards the priesthood)
Let’s be aware of independent priests, or independent doctrine, or independent spirit. An independent chapel last until the the independent priest dies and afterwards there is a drama for the faithful to survive in Tradition. More than ever ever, families must learn the catechism of Trent, the catechism against Modernism, or any other catechism which teaches the perennial doctrine of the Nicene Creed, the Ten Commandments (including the Sixth and Ninth Commandments), the seven sacraments, the Our Father with all prayers, the Unbloody Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ at the altar under the species of bread and wine. Needless to say that this solid Doctrine founded Catholic Civilization. The Christendom in which all of us are still keeping alive.
And certainly is a reason why the Catholic Church uses the suppliant jurisdiction is on order to protect the Common Good of the Church on behalf of the souls and not for a private purpose as for an independent priest. (Canon 209, Capello Vol.1, p 252)
2) Cultural Revolution
There always is a temptation to fall into the spirit of a Protestant sect when practicing Catholic Faith, because we are living in emergent circuмstances provoked by Protestant Revolt and launched by the materialist progress of the Industrial Revolution. And to those who govern our societies and who refused to militate on the Kingship of Christ are still looking for modern solutions, new plans, new techniques to try to take care of the modern problems of humanity…. As Our Lady said in Fatima, Russia will spread its errors… Two essentials errors - Materialism and Atheism.
In one hand, Protestantism was a major change of direction of mankind, because is centered man’s religion on man himself away from God. It was the breakthrough of that subjectivism which has resulted in the universal refusal of objective reality and truth, which today afflicts almost all mankind. It was a mayor revolt against God, and it lies at the root of society today all over the world turning against God. Protestant Revolt works as a driving religious force in the political disorder, as Martin Luther did in Germany, Henry VIII in England, Calvin in France… and Vatican II within the Catholic Church . In this sense Pope Francis had called for a bolt Cultural Revolution that nobody can be against it, he said: “All of this shows the urgent need for us to move forward in a bold cultural revolution. Science and technology are not neutral; from the beginning to the end of a process, various intentions and possibilities are in play and can take on distinct shapes. Nobody is suggesting a return to the Stone Age, but we do need to slow down and look at reality in a different way, to appropriate the positive and sustainable progress which has been made, but also to recover the values and the great goals swept away by our unrestrained delusions of grandeur.” (Si Laudato, # 14 Pope Francis May 24, 2015)
On the other hand, the industrial revolution refers to that tremendous change in human life on this world when, starting with the invention of the print, it spread all over the world, separating men from God’s nature and herding them into big cities to work on machines in factories, man-made and cut off from nature, where they had always lived beforehand. This change from farming the land to working on machines was a huge step in the movement of modern man away from God, and into materialism, namely the worship of matter and things material instead of God.
How essential is the influence of the industrial revolution? It is an effective attitude without reflection for an independent freedom for the sake of novelties. It is to reconcile Christian civilization with modern un-civilization; natural life with artificial virtual life. Indeed, in the Old Testament we learn that Noah’s children rejected to work with natural stone so that they would produce man-made artificial brick to build the tower of Babel, and the end they were confused in their speech for reason of their pride against God. (Gen. 11, 3-4)
So, we are living in a social Godless environment. The American way of life, so to say, remarks in dressing much sensuality, and in musical songs much obscenity and blasphemy form violence to despair, and from romance to seduction. There is no place for virtue nor for honor and honesty. Young men and ladies are sinking into an artificial environment produced by screens and machines. Indeed, there is a cybernetic assault in today’s families separating all family members away from each other. Out of these electronic city of light that the fallen angel Luzbel is tending his snares of malice and vice. On this subject, I want to say that the smartphone in particular is a very dangerous device; certainly it is indifferent per se as an electronic tool. However, as soon as it is online connected into the Internet or any social network, it becomes an occasion of temptation perhaps a remote occasion of sin for some people, but certainly a proximate occasion for many others. I venture to say that to abuse playing on the smartphone it would be a tool to dissipate a religious vocation, and to brake the link of fidelity between husband and wife, and the respect from children to parents.
Why is it too powerful means of corruption? Because preaches Materialism, which is the denial that man has any spirit or free will or responsibility. As you might realize in full conscience, the situation that exists around our countries and within the Church brings chaos in all directions, but certainly almighty God still is in control, in spite that many people have abandoned the notion of eternal life.
So, be aware of the Cultural Revolution. Revolution who are you? Bishop Gaume says, “I am not what is thought. Many people speak of me, and very few know me…. And I a permanent state. “I am hatred of all order which man has not established and in which he is not king and god all together. I am the proclamation of the rights of man without care for the rights of God. I am the foundation of the religious and social State upon the will of man instead of the will of God. I am God dethroned and man in His place. This is why I am called Revolution, that is to say, revolt. (The Revolution, Historical researches, Bishop Gaumme)
3) Conclusion: Public Social and Royal Kingship
We are witnessing today how the civil power claims la sovereignty of the people with all human rights against anything that comes from God. If the Church of Jesus Christ and the society with all its institutions have lost the essential element of Christianity, then what can we do?
Nothing else but to return to God by the resurrection of the principles of the Faith, and by being the salt of earth and the light of the world; to return in our countries the public institutions to profess the rights of God, as well as to return in the individual person the grace instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ and to cooperate with it. It is true that the Church must return to revere the sacred name of God by a truly Christian conversion.
So, Our Lord says, “You will be My witnesses even to the ends of the earth” (Act. 1,8). Indeed, My dear seminarians and friars, to be a cleric or a religious man is an invitation to be witnesses to the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the midst and throughout the chaos we live in. Each one of us has placed oneself on the level of the faith, which is a supernatural level. On that same level that our Lord came to bring to us eternal salivation in taking the flesh like one of us by the mystery of the Incarnation. It is HE who we represent. It is HE that we preach both by word, and by example of live in the midst of today’s syncretism which is preparing the great chastisement.
We all have a vocation here on earth, and must be always subject to Our Lord, in everything we do, in all our acts and consequently in the acts of our profession too, and duties of state as Our Lady said in Fatima.There are still people who believe, people who still have faith. They might awake by the example of practicing your Faith and your Catholic convictions. So, let us take our daily responsibilities in a Christian way, and not in the American way of life.
It is necessary that we continue the crusade launched by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, based precisely upon these notions of the atonement of sacrifice, in order to reestablish the same Christendom such as the Catholic Church desires, with the same principles of eternal salvation, with the Sacrifice of the Mass of Redemption, with the same sacraments instituted by Christ Himself, the catechism the same doctrine and same Holy Scripture, saying that at the beginning God created and and woman. We must restore all things in Christ- That is Christendom! It is to you that our Lord Jesus Christ addressed Himself saying: ‘Do not lose the fruit of My Blood, do not abandon My Sacrifice.”
It is His Cross the ferment of Christian civilization and for all that is necessary for salvation. The Catholic city of this world is made for nothing else than for the Catholic City in heaven. As in the past, the Papacy of Saint Leo the Great opposed the politics of Attila; the episcopal power of Saint Remy opposed the paganism by conventing Clovis, King of the Franks; as Saint Joan of Arc, that young girl of seventeen years old, drove away the British political affairs out of France so that France would remain Catholic.
Let’s entrust in Our Lady our life to her who is powerful as an army arrayed for a battle to overcome all heresies, including the pest of Modernism. Saint Anthony Mary Claret said concerning the Immaculate Heart of Mary’s triumph: God wants it, she deserves it, and we need it!
So, This is the faith of my episcopacy which I transmit to you - He must reign!
Bp. Zendejas
Since Vatican II Council there have been numerous independent priests surviving to say the Latin Mass; some of them were ordained in pre-vatican II time, others come from the sedevantis line, some others after 2007 motu propio, others from Novus Ordo into Tradition or those who left any Eclessia Dei Commission group, or SSPX, or Resistance, or you name them…
Dear Faithful, you are presently sharing the Operation Survival of Archbishop Lefebvre, in the sense that many of you are surviving to practice in your Catholic Faith. What priest you suppose to believe? Where to go to Mass and who to receive Sacraments from? Why there are many independent priests? And independent bishops? Does this chaos stem from any practical Modernist principle?
As Archbishop Lefebvre said in his sermon of 1988 Episcopal Consecrations, in order to ordain Catholic Priests, we need Catholic Bishops. And in his conferences afterwards, he mentioned that before the ceremony of June 30th, some bishops and cardinals contacted him asking him the possibility of doing the Episcopal Consecrations in private, keeping photos and records in secret, and after his death the new bishops could unveil the secrecy. The Archbishop responded to them, that the crisis within the Catholic Church is public in such a way that the remedy given must also be publicly, in particular for the sake of the faithful who must be confirmed and supported in the Catholic Faith. He added, “secret things come from devil, public things come from God.”
In regards to an independent priest he said, “Because of the difficult situation in the Church, I have received letters several times from people asking me to ordain them priests yet without asking to enter the Society. I always refuse. It was the case of a deacon who told me, “I have done all my studies, I have completed my formation. Why won’t you ordain me?” And he gave me letters of recommendation from various priests. I said no, that he had to be a member of a religious society. If he wanted to become a member of the Society or of a group which would normally be recognized by the Church, then yes, but otherwise it is not possible. It is absolutely contrary to canon law. And I do not want to act against canon law.” (Priestly Holiness, ABL, Towards the priesthood)
Let’s be aware of independent priests, or independent doctrine, or independent spirit. An independent chapel last until the the independent priest dies and afterwards there is a drama for the faithful to survive in Tradition. More than ever ever, families must learn the catechism of Trent, the catechism against Modernism, or any other catechism which teaches the perennial doctrine of the Nicene Creed, the Ten Commandments (including the Sixth and Ninth Commandments), the seven sacraments, the Our Father with all prayers, the Unbloody Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ at the altar under the species of bread and wine. Needless to say that this solid Doctrine founded Catholic Civilization. The Christendom in which all of us are still keeping alive.
And certainly is a reason why the Catholic Church uses the suppliant jurisdiction is on order to protect the Common Good of the Church on behalf of the souls and not for a private purpose as for an independent priest. (Canon 209, Capello Vol.1, p 252)
Bp. Zendejas
Only noticing this now.
Wow the gloves have come off here.
This takes a swipe at Bishop Williamson (and Bishop Ballini) in two ways.
One, becausse we all remember Bishop W's famous quote about how the faithful will survive as loosely independent pockets.
And two because the Bishop consecrated Bishop B in secret.
Added to this, Bishop B is forming and ordaining priests as independent priests.
I'm not going to be the one to start causing divisions here, but just pointing something out here that anyone with half a brain can see. Surprised no one picked up on this. The division is caused by such a public attack (dare I say it) on his fellow bishops and independent priests.
Look, let's get this something straight here. Everyone knows the reason the SSPX took so many over in it's apostasy was because it had become such a monolith. It was the only game in town because Archbishop Lefebvre had consecrated his bishops from the SSPX. Natural enough, because he set it up, but it was problematic because one head is easier to cut of than many. And thats what happened in 2012.
Well done Bishop Z for quoting Archbishop Lefebvre, but it is not of the faith that we have to agree with everything he said. In fact, he had the maturity to admit he was often wrong about things, like when he said he should have consecrated earlier. He grew in wisdom, as can our current Bishops.
What I would prefer Bishop Z to have said is nothing. There was no need to start out saying this. It is no wonder so many people come to our Masses and think we are a cult. If we think we are setting up an alternative Church.
I find the insinuation that independent priests are modernist rather offensive. Especially considering we have so many good ones, really working hard to give us the sacraments.
Thanks for pointing out the problem with Bishop Z's communication. I hadn't really considered what he was saying in regard to the independent priest issue. May I ask....why is Bp. B forming and ordaining independent priests? I don't really have a problem with independent priests, but there must be a reason why Bp. B is doing so. Maybe it can be explained?
TheRealMcCoy mentioned the persecutions that Bp. B has been facing in Ireland (which is very real), but I don't understand how that fits into the reasoning of the need for independent priests. I'm not trying to be difficult; just wanting to understand the situation.
+Ballini kept his consecration quiet at the request of +Williamson for over a year. So +B is not acting independent. +W provided the Holy Orders for the seminarians in Ireland (with the exception of the recent ordination) so he is working closely with +B to build up the apostolate.
What is the definition of an independent priest? The Irish apostolate has 2 priests and they both live in the Priory with +Ballini. Neither of them have their own source of support and are reliant on the apostolate for their daily needs. Not exactly independent. Plus at least 5 other ADJM priests are in collaboration with +B. Some Dominicans from France were in attendance at that ordination in January so +Faure is aware of the goings on in Ireland. The real and true Irish persecution (which is docuмented in court records and the Irish press) destroys the false "Connecticut cristero" narrative bandied about for years.
Since when does the US need to be consulted in European matters? There is no cabal. +Zendejas just isn't on the invites.
The "Resistance" is not a collegiate organization. +Williamson doesn't need anyone's permission or approval.
Bishop Williamson did not choose independence but had it thrust on him. He cannot unbishop himself. He could not be considered indepent in the sense of the sermon.Just as many of us shouldn’t be considered “Home Aloners.” It was not our choice to abandoned by the source of Mass and Sacraments. Not everyone can continually pull up stakes and relocate. Most, in fact, cannot afford it.
+Ballini kept his consecration quiet at the request of +Williamson for over a year. So +B is not acting independent. +W provided the Holy Orders for the seminarians in Ireland (with the exception of the recent ordination) so he is working closely with +B to build up the apostolate.
What is the definition of an independent priest? The Irish apostolate has 2 priests and they both live in the Priory with +Ballini. Neither of them have their own source of support and are reliant on the apostolate for their daily needs. Not exactly independent. Plus at least 5 other ADJM priests are in collaboration with +B. Some Dominicans from France were in attendance at that ordination in January so +Faure is aware of the goings on in Ireland. The real and true Irish persecution (which is docuмented in court records and the Irish press) destroys the false "Connecticut cristero" narrative bandied about for years.
Since when does the US need to be consulted in European matters? There is no cabal. +Zendejas just isn't on the invites.
The "Resistance" is not a collegiate organization. +Williamson doesn't need anyone's permission or approval.
Thanks for pointing out the problem with Bishop Z's communication. I hadn't really considered what he was saying in regard to the independent priest issue. May I ask....why is Bp. B forming and ordaining independent priests? I don't really have a problem with independent priests, but there must be a reason why Bp. B is doing so. Maybe it can be explained?Why shouldn't he ordain independent priests? Where is it written that he has to?
TheRealMcCoy mentioned the persecutions that Bp. B has been facing in Ireland (which is very real), but I don't understand how that fits into the reasoning of the need for independent priests. I'm not trying to be difficult; just wanting to understand the situation.
Why shouldn't he ordain independent priests? Where is it written that he has to?
We are not the ordinary jurisdiction of the Church, nor should we pretend to be.
No explaining necessary. If anything the default is for the priest to be independent. If he feels particularly lonely and wants to live in common with other priests, then that is what societies are for. But by default he should be on his own.
I don't understand RealMcCoys point either.
It was Bishop B who wanted things secret not BW.
There is also Fr. Bufe and Fr. Kramer in Ireland. Though the latter has not received conditional ordination.
The bottom line is that many clerics do not like independent priests because they can't control them. That lack of control terrifies them. So they feel they have to set up a parallel church to do that. Rather than accept the will of God for the situation we are in. They can't deal with their own insecurities. Clerics don't have to set up societies to be controlling btw. Insecure clerics exist among those independent. But that is for another discussion....
Fr Kramer was a Bennyvacantist (until recently) and thinks Francis is an anti-Pope. I don't think he took issue with any other Vll Pope, however.
I don't have a problem with independent traditional priests. There may come a time when we will need them. I was only trying to understand the situation.We need independent priests now. Now and always. To balance against the nonsense of the insecure clerics within societies.
Is Fr. Kramer associated with the Resistance in Ireland? Isn't Fr. Kramer a sedevacantist? Or am I wrong about that? Maybe that has something to do with +Z's concerns?
We need independent priests now. Now and always. To balance against the nonsense of the insecure clerics within societies.
Fr. Kramer is in the resistance yes. His bennyvacantism (maybe set up discussion in another thread about that) has nothing to do with Bishop Z's concern.
Most likely you will not fully understand Bishop Z's concern. Certainly not from a public forum. My guess is there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. It has been bubbling under the surface for quite a while now.
Bishop Z won't back down from this. Don't expect him to. People prefer societies and priests from them. Because it takes certain crosses away from their lives, most particularly the cross of the crises in the Church. This crises which forces us to be grown ups about our faith and religion. To take care of priests rather than be babysat by them. Also the cross of having to challenge clerics, or at least stand up to them when we know they're wrong. (should be done almost always in private). No one wants this, especially when we have so many other things to worry about in our secular lives. So people will opt for the "package option" of a society.
The clerics in that will feel good about themselves. But it is a hollow victory. Because all they will end up with are weak faithful like the SSPXers. If they push this idea too much that is. There is a certain place for it. But we shouldn't get dogmatic about it.
This is how Vatican II happened, it is how the SSPX crises happened, and it will probably be how the next crises will happen. The weak spot of Catholics for the last 500 years. The devil knows it, and is only delighted to take advantage of it.
.... Some Dominicans from France were in attendance at that ordination in January so +Faure is aware of the goings on in Ireland. The real and true Irish persecution (which is docuмented in court records and the Irish press) destroys the false "Connecticut cristero" narrative bandied about for years.A priest of the SAJM tells me that not a single priest of the SAJM collaborates with Bp. B and that there were no Dominicans from Avrillé at the January ordination.
A priest of the SAJM tells me that not a single priest of the SAJM collaborates with Bp. B and that there were no Dominicans from Avrillé at the January ordination.
Why shouldn't he ordain independent priests? Where is it written that he has to?You nailed it.
We are not the ordinary jurisdiction of the Church, nor should we pretend to be.
.
.
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The bottom line is that many clerics do not like independent priests because they can't control them. That lack of control terrifies them. So they feel they have to set up a parallel church to do that. Rather than accept the will of God for the situation we are in. They can't deal with their own insecurities. Clerics don't have to set up societies to be controlling btw. Insecure clerics exist among those independent. But that is for another discussion....
The bottom line is that many clerics do not like independent priests because they can't control them. That lack of control terrifies them.
And then there's the simple fact that a bishop is responsible before God for every priest he ordains. I'm sure many good bishops have been taken off-guard over the years when they find out just who they ordained. God alone knows, and God is the Just Judge. But nevertheless, a bishop must do his due diligence.This is true, but the bishop also has limited responsibility because he has no jurisdiction. We're in the wild west days. We're just trying to survive. All of these "religious orders" aren't real orders because there's no real vows, because there's no real authority due to no real jurisdiction. If a priest goes off the rails, there's nothing anyone can do. See Fr Pfeiffer as a great example. Fr P made some mistakes and no one can stop him. And he alone should be blamed. Any authority/control that Trad societies put in place isn't real. These are the times we live in.
In the coming times of persecution, I'd rather have a situation where the govt can't track down all the priests by simply showing up to 2 or 3 "Trad Centers" and getting an address list. It would be better if such things weren't "centralized" (and that's the advantage of +W's "independent" approach).^^This^^ I’ve been saying this since 2012. Many priests condemn +Bp. W., +Bp. Zendejas for their lack of organization and public outreach. While it would be wonderful for right now if they had both opened a seminary and were ordaining hundreds of priests, I’ve withheld judgment based upon this very fact. After the public priests have all been rounded up and martyred, those who fly under the radar may be all we’ve got. Time will tell.
^^This^^ I’ve been saying this since 2012. Many priests condemn +Bp. W., +Bp. Zendejas for their lack of organization and public outreach. While it would be wonderful for right now if they had both opened a seminary and were ordaining hundreds of priests, I’ve withheld judgment based upon this very fact. After the public priests have all been rounded up and martyred, those who fly under the radar may be all we’ve got. Time will tell.
In the coming times of persecution, I'd rather have a situation where the govt can't track down all the priests by simply showing up to 2 or 3 "Trad Centers" and getting an address list. It would be better if such things weren't "centralized" (and that's the advantage of +W's "independent" approach).