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Offline Raphaela

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Resistance Laymen Banned from SSPX Chapels in Germany
« on: June 17, 2013, 05:35:31 PM »
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  • I've just found a very good German Resistance blog run by a layman, Paul Schenker, who's been supporting Tradition by writing and publishing since the 1960's.  

    http://poschenker.wordpress.com/

    He links to the French website Avec l'Immaculee.

    He gives an account of the banning by Fr. Schmidberger of two laymen from all the chapels in the German District of the the SSPX and from the church of St. Athanasius in Hattersheim which is affiliated to them. (I don't know how independent it is.):

    http://poschenker.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/offener-brief-an-p-franz-schmidberger-bezuglich-seiner-kritik-an-den-schwestern-von-brilon-wald/

    The laymen have been told by two priests of the XSPX that they will also refuse them Holy Communion outside of Mass, as to give it to them would be to evade "the punishment of Fr. Schmidberger". One of the laymen quotes from a letter from Fr. Schmidberger in which he is told that a reason for the ban is "the collection of signatures for an Open Letter" (supporting the Carmelites of Brilon Wald).

    The Church of St. Athanasius, built by Fr. Hans Milch, the only parish priest in Germany to refuse to say the New Mass, is run by Actio Spes Unica and its website promotes the memory and writings of Fr. Hans Milch and Fr. Gregorius Hesse, two priests who would certainly be supporting the Resistance now. Their President says he wishes to distance the organisation from Bishop Williamson.

    I'm surprised that a ban from entering the buildings is possible under German charity law.



     

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Resistance Laymen Banned from SSPX Chapels in Germany
    « Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 06:02:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    I've just found a very good German Resistance blog run by a layman, Paul Schenker, who's been supporting Tradition by writing and publishing since the 1960's.  

    http://poschenker.wordpress.com/

    He links to the French website Avec l'Immaculee.

    He gives an account of the banning by Fr. Schmidberger of two laymen from all the chapels in the German District of the the SSPX and from the church of St. Athanasius in Hattersheim which is affiliated to them. (I don't know how independent it is.):

    http://poschenker.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/offener-brief-an-p-franz-schmidberger-bezuglich-seiner-kritik-an-den-schwestern-von-brilon-wald/

    The laymen have been told by two priests of the XSPX that they will also refuse them Holy Communion outside of Mass, as to give it to them would be to evade "the punishment of Fr. Schmidberger". One of the laymen quotes from a letter from Fr. Schmidberger in which he is told that a reason for the ban is "the collection of signatures for an Open Letter" (supporting the Carmelites of Brilon Wald).




    You can see how important losing the Carmel of Brilon Wald has been
    because of the vengefulness it evokes in the Menzingen-denizens.



    Quote
    The Church of St. Athanasius, built by Fr. Hans Milch, the only parish priest in Germany to refuse to say the New Mass,




    I am very interested in seeing a list of the priests who had the fortitude
    to hold out against the Newmass.  I have never heard of this one.  Now,
    I have to wonder, how is his name pronounced?  How can I speak it to
    people without mispronouncing it?  



    Quote
    is run by Actio Spes Unica and its website promotes the memory and writings of Fr. Hans Milch and Fr. Gregorius Hesse,




    Now, I knew Canon Hesse, and I treasure the memory of giving him a
    great joy that he took to his grave.  I reported to him that my godson
    was converted to the Faith from protestantism by listening to his lectures,
    and he told me that now he can take consolation that all his efforts have
    not been in vain.  Those were his parting words to me, and the next I
    heard of him was that he had died.

    Was Fr. Hans Milch an influence on Fr. Gregorius Hesse?  



    Quote
    two priests who would certainly be supporting the Resistance now. Their President says he wishes to distance the organisation from Bishop Williamson.




    I highly doubt that Fr. Hesse would want to 'distance himself' from +W, and
    by association, I figure the same would be true of Fr. Milch.  

    This is sad news, that the president of Actio Spes Unica would have this
    view of things, but it is sadly consistent with the spread of the unclean
    spirit of Vat.II manifest in the acts of the Menzingen-denizens like Fr.
    Schmidberger.

    This is the kind of thing that +W is up against in his decision to consecrate
    bishops.  It would be far less complicated if traditional groups who support
    and commemorate heroes like Fr. Milch and Fr. Hesse would be more in step
    with the program instead of inimical to it.  For as it is, consecrations might
    be more of a wedge that divides rather than a balm of preservation.

    The question he must weigh is, which direction is it going?  Are things on
    the increase?  Is there more support for the Resistance?  Or is it fading,
    and less support?  Would consecrations shatter the fragile vase that holds
    the Faith of Catholics or would they guard it from the snares of the devil?



    Quote
    I'm surprised that a ban from entering the buildings is possible under German charity law.

     




    That's a good point.  Maybe there is another law that supersedes it, like
    the one that says you can't incite racial unrest or whatever.

    How would they enforce it?  Is there now a system like the police have
    of mug shots of criminals, and every ExSPX chapel has a book with photos
    of the people (and children?) who are VERBOTEN from entry, and a man
    stands guard at every doorway with an iPad carrying the files to view???



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    Offline Incredulous

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    Resistance Laymen Banned from SSPX Chapels in Germany
    « Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 06:09:16 PM »
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  • Good old Father Schmidberger is a "class act".  

    First he attempts to defame the Carmelites for resisting the SSPX capitulation.
    Now he bans their faithful supporters from the Sacraments.


    Wonder why the faithful want to distance themselves from +W ?  Is it due to his expose of chimney-less gas chambers which is part of Germany's political dogma?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline BrJoseph

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    Resistance Laymen Banned from SSPX Chapels in Germany
    « Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 06:12:30 PM »
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  • Father Hesse would have been a great bishop!

    Offline Raphaela

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    « Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 06:26:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous

    Wonder why the faithful want to distance themselves from +W ?  Is it due to his expose of chimney-less gas chambers which is part of Germany's political dogma?

    That's the reason!!


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 08:34:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous



    Good old Father Schmidberger is a "class act".  

    First he attempts to defame the Carmelites for resisting the SSPX capitulation.
    Now he bans their faithful supporters from the Sacraments.


    Wonder why the faithful want to distance themselves from +W ?  Is it due to his expose of chimney-less gas chambers which is part of Germany's political dogma?




    The Nazi Holocaust is the dogma outside of which there is no salvation!  

    But you debase the Nazi Holocaust when you commercialize it.

    What do the Hollywood elite say when they visit Jerusalem?  

    There's no business like Shoah business!  



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    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 04:51:54 AM »
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  • Fr. Schmidberger wields whatever power he has which I suspect may be now on the decline. The Swiss have a firmer control of the German zone. Also his day has come and gone along with his hero in Rome. How heavily some trads invested in Ratzinger; they reaped a paltry dividend. And now ABL's chosen leaders use all the tricks in the book to control their own personal fiefdoms! Are we surprised?

    Offline Marion

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    Resistance Laymen Banned from SSPX Chapels in Germany
    « Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 05:14:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
     How can I speak it to people without mispronouncing it?  



    Offline Elsa Zardini

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    « Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 05:27:39 AM »
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  • Raphaela: "I'm surprised that a ban from entering the buildings is possible under German charity law". Private buildings included?

    Offline Against the Heresies

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    « Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 05:35:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Elsa Zardini
    Raphaela: "I'm surprised that a ban from entering the buildings is possible under German charity law". Private buildings included?

    If the chapels of the SSPX are just "private buildings", then the (Neo-)SSPX is a sect.

    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 06:15:34 AM »
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  • It's just WRONG to use the Mass and the Sacraments as a political weapon.  The priests who knowingly do so will be punished by God.
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 06:55:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    It's just WRONG to use the Mass and the Sacraments as a political weapon.  The priests who knowingly do so will be punished by God.


    My priest told me that it is a mortal sin for any priest to withhold the
    sacraments for a nefarious purpose.  

    There are very specific rules that apply.  Only a narrow demographic
    qualifies as those who would be so affected.  One of them is a public
    sinner who scandalizes the community by his unCatholic life or
    behavior in a public capacity, such as Nancy Pelosi or Biden receiving
    Communion while they are pro-abortion, or Mel Gibson while he is
    living in sin with a woman who is not his wife.

    But for anyone to be opposed to the political leanings of a pious
    union of priests that has no jurisdiction over the Faithful -- there is
    no way that can ever qualify as a public sinner.  No way, Jose.  



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    Offline Ethelred

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    « Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 08:34:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    Quote from: Incredulous
    Wonder why the faithful want to distance themselves from +W ?  Is it due to his expose of chimney-less gas chambers which is part of Germany's political dogma?[/color]

    That's the reason!

    I don't think so. In my experience the German faithful who live in the Federal Republic of Germany (BRD) distance themselves from Bishop Williamson mainly because they're told to do so by the superiors. The faithful want to keep "their" Neo-SSPX and its buildings, they worked hard for it during the past decades. And in their eyes the good bishop "endangers" the peace in the Neo-SSPX. Unfortunately, so many of them are more or less liberalised. And so they don't know anymore that there can be no peace without the truth.

    In my experience the faithful were always rather reluctant concerning the good bishop, because he's always been "too" anti-liberal and "too" truth-loving for most Catholics. He always called a spade a spade, and that's not popular in our modern times. So it's also not popular in our modern Neo-SSPX.

    That's so in many Neo-SSPX districts, isn't it?

    I think that the good bishop's 2008 interview (where in a few moments he explained the  Holohoax) was only a catalyst of what was already rumbling on for years.

    By the way, many German Neo-SSPX laypeople don't believe in the Holohoax.
    And now, back on topic. :-)

    Offline Ethelred

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    « Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 08:55:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Against the Heresies
    Quote from: Elsa Zardini
    Raphaela: "I'm surprised that a ban from entering the buildings is possible under German charity law". Private buildings included?

    If the chapels of the SSPX are just "private buildings", then the (Neo-)SSPX is a sect.


    What Fr Schmidberger does with the laymen mentioned in this thread, who are just not in agreement with Bishop Fellay and Fr Schmidberger, but who're absolutely faithful Catholics, is a clear infringement of the Church Law: of the old Canon, but also the new Canon!

    And no less a figure than the well known German senior Church Law expert Father professor Georg May from Mainz, who was consulted by the laymen mentioned in this thread, this professor who's an eminent authority in such questions, stated that Fr Schmidberger's exclusion of these laymen because they're in disagreement with him and with Bishop Fellay, is a perversion of justice, a perverson of Church Law, and very grave.


    So, AtH is correct, as usual. A Roman-Catholic Holy Mass is not a private meeting. A chapel's prior where the Holy Sacraments are spent, has no right to exclude a faithful Catholic. There's only two exceptions where it is allowed to do so: if the person in question would be a known heretic, or a known mortal sinner (for example living in public adultery).

    Concerning a house ban, because of a chapel being a private property: Catholic superiors can only use this to make faithful laymen who're in disagreement with them, to leave the building after Holy Mass, so that for example they can't distribute flyers or the like. Or these superiors can use the civil right to exclude people who would demolish the building.
    But several senior traditional priests told me that it's not possible for any Catholic priest or superior to exclude a Catholic layman who's asking for the Holy Sacraments, wherever they're being spent.

    Additionally in the case of this thread, one (or more?) of these laymen was denied the Holy Sacrament of the Confession. An upright SSPX priest was asked to spend this sacrament outside the SSPX chapel (because of a house ban where the superior said he would call the police), and was ready to do so, but was prohibited to spend the confession outside the Neo-SSPX chapel's property by his superior...


    Alas, this is no a Fr Schmidberger ego-trip. He knows that Menzingen is standing behind him in this aspect. Also Fr N. Pfluger already excluded Catholic laymen from the Holy Sacraments, when he was district superior. Doesn't the US district do similar things? I think I read it here on Cathinfo some weeks ago, about a dying boy being denied the last Sacrament.

    When in autumn the Austrian and German district superiors will be replaced by the two "little Swiss" (as Bishop Williamson used to say in his recent Asian lecture) who're 100% loyal to Bp Fellay, this a perversion of justice will continue.

    Yes, this infringement of the Church Law is a clear sign of a sect. I heard from a good source, that after a Neo-SSPX priest was confronted with Fr. May's sound argumentation, the Neo-SSPX priest just "replied": "Then sue us!", well knowing that in today's Church crisis you won't find a traditional ecclesiastical court. So they don't mind them breaking the Church Law. Incredible.

    Offline Raphaela

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    « Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 09:12:58 AM »
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  • Do they have charitable status in Germany, Ethelred? They're an "e. V.", a registered association, but do they get any tax benefits, as charities do in England and America? Here they have to be of public benefit to have that status, so if they started banning people from chapels open to the general public, they would lose the tax-breaks and be deregistered, as I understand it. They could only ban people who were causing obvious disruption or threatening harm to the people or the building. (Charity law wouldn't be concerned with refusing the sacraments, of course, just access to the chapels.)

    The two laymen have even promised not to hand out leaflets on SSPX property and are still banned.

     

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