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Author Topic: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'  (Read 1780 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2020, 09:19:08 AM »
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  • On 14th of June, Viganò has written another short letter, published on Blog: Chiesa e post concilio. Viganò repeats the idea that it's better to ditch the whole robber council instead of removing single heretical propositions (proposizioni eretiche o che favoriscono l’eresia).

    Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli, a disciple of Romano Amerio, has commented on that letter (blog-post Comment of 15 giugno 2020 19:14). He calls Viganò "the first of all bishops to take the right position" and "more useful than Lefebvre".


    Quote from: Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli
    Ho letto le pregevolissime parole di Monsignor Viganò in risposta al Prof. Pasqualucci, parole più che pregevoli, perché la sua è la vera posizione da prendere. Monsignor Viganò è il primo, tra tutti i Vescovi cattolici, a prendere la posizione giusta sulla questione ed è anche più utile alla Chiesa di quanto sia stato Mons. Lefebvre, che non arrivò mai a dire tanto e malgrado ciò riuscì a farsi scomunicare, mettendo in difficoltà tutti gli altri Vescovi che magari avrebbero preso la stessa posizione ma senza arrivare alla disobbedienza alla Santa Sede con la storia delle Ordinαzιoni Vescovili.

    E intanto un Vescovo dalla nostra ora c’è: abbiamo un nuovo Atanasio, non ne avevo alcun dubbio. Mons. Livi, prima di morire, mi urlò due volte, a distanza di una settimana una dall’altra:

    “Vaticano I sì! Vaticano II no, no, no! Vaticano II via via via! Vaticano I sì: dogma, dogma dogma!”

    Mi felicito con Monsignor Viganò per la nettezza della scelta, uguale a quella di Mons. Livi: il Vaticano II va censurato tutto in generale come conciliabolo equivoco e subdolo con grave e colpevole dolo dei suoi Maggiorenti che lo vollero “pastorale” e non dogmatico come era loro preciso, divino e indifferibile dovere, e va censurato in particolare in quei sette capisaldi ereticali che ne contraddistinguono esplicitamente la peccaminosa ereticalità: 1), regalità di Cristo e derivante diritto pubblico della Chiesa; 2), sui diritti dell’unica verità eguagliati a quelli delle mille falsità (dialogo e non insegnamento); 3), sull’ecuмenismo spurio, ipocrita e origine di tutti gli altri errori; 4), sulla libertà religiosa; 5), sulla ecclesiologia; 6), sulla morale matrimoniale e genericamente sessuale; 7), sulla manchevole nozione di Messa e sugli atroci atti derivanti, in primis l’Institutio dell’annientante e super atroce Novus Ordo Missae (v. il mio All’attacco! Cristo vince, pp. 17 e 121).  
    Pregare, pregare, pregare! Xto vince!

    Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli

    Quote from: deepl-translation
    I read the very valuable words of Monsignor Viganò in response to Prof. Pasqualucci, words more than valuable, because his is the true position to take. Monsignor Viganò is the first, among all the Catholic Bishops, to take the right position on the issue and he is also more useful to the Church than Bishop Lefebvre, who never went so far as to say so much and despite this managed to have himself excommunicated, putting in trouble all the other Bishops who might have taken the same position but without arriving at disobedience to the Holy See with the history of the Episcopal ordinations.

    And in the meantime there is a Bishop from our time: we have a new Athanasius, I had no doubt. Bishop Livi, before dying, shouted at me twice, one week apart:

    "Vatican I yes! Vatican II no, no, no! Vatican II, go, go, go, go, go! Vatican I yes: dogma, dogma, dogma!"

    I congratulate Monsignor Viganò for the clarity of the choice, the same as that of Monsignor Livi: Vatican II should be censored in general as an equivocal and devious conciliabulum with serious and guilty intent of his Maggiorenti who wanted it "pastoral" and not dogmatic as it was their precise, divine and unavoidable duty, and should be censored in particular in those seven heretical cornerstones that explicitly distinguish its sinful hereticality: 1), the kingship of Christ and deriving public law of the Church; 2), on the rights of the one truth equal to those of a thousand falsehoods (dialogue and non-teaching); 3), on spurious, hypocritical ecuмenism and the origin of all other errors; 4), on religious freedom; 5), on ecclesiology; 6), on matrimonial and generically sɛҳuąƖ morality; 7), on the lack of the notion of Mass and on the atrocious acts deriving, first of all, from the Institutio of the annihilating and super atrocious Novus Ordo Missae (v. My Attack! Christ Wins, pp. 17 and 121).  
    Pray, pray, pray! Xto wins!

    Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli

    Antonio Livi died in April this year.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #46 on: June 26, 2020, 09:20:36 AM »
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  • Xavier,

    Is a teaching which is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and the Magisterium heretical? Archbishop Vigano says the teaching of religious liberty by the Second Vatican Council in DH is that, i.e. contrary to Scripture and the Church's Magisterium.

    Yet you say this is something it "cannot have."

    A reasonable man whom you respect and laud, Archbishop Vigano, says it has what you say it "cannot have."

    Is he a heretic who has the Church defecting? Does he too deny the indefectibility of the Church?

    Xavier,

    I checked again for the exact quote of Vigano about the teaching in DH in the June 9 letter:


    Quote
    . . . the presumed legitimacy of the exercise of religious freedom that the Second Vatican Council theorized, contradicting the testimony of Sacred Scripture and the voice of Tradition, as well as the Catholic Magisterium which is the faithful guardian of both.


    There it is. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #47 on: June 26, 2020, 09:22:57 AM »
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  • On 14th of June, Viganò has written another short letter, published on Blog: Chiesa e post concilio. Viganò repeats the idea that it's better to ditch the whole robber council instead of removing single heretical propositions (proposizioni eretiche o che favoriscono l’eresia).

    Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli, a disciple of Romano Amerio, has commented on that letter (blog-post Comment of 15 giugno 2020 19:14). He calls Viganò "the first of all bishops to take the right position" and "more useful than Lefebvre".
    Good stuff. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #48 on: June 26, 2020, 11:40:52 AM »
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  • Good stuff.

    Right.  It seems that +Vigano is even stronger than +Lefebvre on this.  Archbishop Lefebvre never called for a straight elimination of V2.  At times, he said that he could accept V2 when interpreted according to Tradition.  Now that was an equivocal expression. JP2 took it as meaning a hermeneutic of continuity, whereas +Lefebvre meant rejecting the bad propositions ... so it was a bit of political-speak there.  I believe that +Lefebvre was more akin to +Schneider's position.  Vigano, on the other hand, calls V2 a devilish council (going a step beyond robber council).  We'll have to see where he goes next with it.  Hopefully this isn't the last we've heard from him.

    Of course, he's only the first bishop to get it right if you ignore the various sedevacantist bishops out there.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #49 on: June 26, 2020, 08:24:53 PM »
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  • Either that or he doesn't want to call any more attention to the Vigano June 9th letter than he has to.  Hard to say why he didn't mention him.  Could also just be because he intended to write the article in broader terms and did not want it necessarily to be viewed as a point-by-point rebuttal of +Vigano.  It really wasn't.  It was really just a re-statement of his original position to which +Vigano was responding.  So, for example, +Vigano disagreed with his example of the traditio instrumentorum as precedent for reforming a Council.  Here +Schneider merely re-states that without refuting +Vigano's objection to it.


    Viganò starts his June 9th letter with "I read with great interest the essay of His Excellency Athanasius Schneider ..." and he compliments "His Excellency’s study summarizes, with the clarity that distinguishes the words of those who speak according to Christ ... " and Viganò praises Schneider "The merit of His Excellency’s essay ... ".

    Let's assume that Scheider is 100% sure that the letter is indeed of Viganò and not of some ViganQ-phantom. Why doesn't he mention the name of Viganò? Why does Schneider not answer to "we inevitably fall under the condemnation of the Decree Lamentabili"? Why does Schneider simply repeat his stance without touching the objection of Viganò? What is Schneider's letter good for, if he acts as if Viganò hadn't said anything? Schneider is acting as if Viganò didn't exist at all.

    It's clear: The proposal of Viganò is beyond any allowed position. It can't even be mentioned or responded to. Guys like Skojec are thick enough to reveal that they agree, but Schneider cannot. Schneider knows that admitting a "parallel church" and admitting "we all knew that the Council would be more or less a revolution" (Viganò) would reveal that he's been a revolutionary all the time, too. The only thing uncomprehensible is, how Viganò can on the one hand admit to having served the Antichrist for 50 years, and on the other hand not figure that that implies that he lost all credibility and should retire in hiding.

    Assuming that it is Viganò.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #50 on: June 26, 2020, 08:57:37 PM »
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  • Viganò starts his June 9th letter with "I read with great interest the essay of His Excellency Athanasius Schneider ..." and he compliments "His Excellency’s study summarizes, with the clarity that distinguishes the words of those who speak according to Christ ... " and Viganò praises Schneider "The merit of His Excellency’s essay ... ".

    Let's assume that Scheider is 100% sure that the letter is indeed of Viganò and not of some ViganQ-phantom. Why doesn't he mention the name of Viganò? Why does Schneider not answer to "we inevitably fall under the condemnation of the Decree Lamentabili"? Why does Schneider simply repeat his stance without touching the objection of Viganò? What is Schneider's letter good for, if he acts as if Viganò hadn't said anything? Schneider is acting as if Viganò didn't exist at all.

    It's clear: The proposal of Viganò is beyond any allowed position. It can't even be mentioned or responded to. Guys like Skojec are thick enough to reveal that they agree, but Schneider cannot. Schneider knows that admitting a "parallel church" and admitting "we all knew that the Council would be more or less a revolution" (Viganò) would reveal that he's been a revolutionary all the time, too. The only thing uncomprehensible is, how Viganò can on the one hand admit to having served the Antichrist for 50 years, and on the other hand not figure that that implies that he lost all credibility and should retire in hiding.

    Assuming that it is Viganò.
    Responding to him gives him credibility. He may very well be giving him the silent treatment.  Perhaps he is taking cues from his pope who ignored the Dubia Brothers
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #51 on: June 26, 2020, 10:36:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    The only thing uncomprehensible is, how Viganò can on the one hand admit to having served the Antichrist for 50 years, and on the other hand not figure that that implies that he lost all credibility and should retire in hiding.
    St Paul and St Augustine should’ve retired in hiding too?  Are you preaching a Calvinistic sede-ism where conversions are impossible now?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #52 on: June 27, 2020, 01:18:25 AM »
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  • Why is so important for Bishop Schneider, SSPX, etc. to save what they can of Vatican II (see his quotes below)? Is it a requirement to be allowed to live peacefully in the NWO and not be persecuted?

    The fact that they have poke and prod, scrape and scratch the Council like a half rotten fruit should be enough to say " toss it, it ain't worth saving". If the NWO puppet masters can do a "global reset" on the old Catholic World Order, then we Catholics should be able to do our own "reset" on VII.


    "Some who criticize the Second Vatican Council say that, although there are good aspects to it, it’s somewhat like a cake with a bit of poison in it, and so the whole cake needs to be thrown out. I do not think we can follow this method, nor the method of “throwing the baby out with the bath water.” With regard to a legitimate ecuмenical Council, even if there were negative points, we have to maintain an overall attitude of respect. We have to evaluate and esteem all that is really and truly good in the Council texts, without irrationally and dishonestly closing the eyes of reason to what is objectively and evidently ambiguous and even erroneous in some of the texts. One has always to remember that the texts of the Second Vatican Council are not the inspired Word of God, nor are they definitive dogmatic judgments or infallible pronouncements of the Magisterium, because the Council itself did not have this intention."

    "Another example is Amoris Laetitia. There are certainly many points we need to criticize objectively and doctrinally. But there are some sections which are very helpful, really good for family life, e.g., about elderly people in the family: in se they are very good. One should not reject the entire docuмent but receive from it what is good. The same with the Council texts."
    Let us recall Michael Matt's recent praise for Bishop Schneider. He and XavierSem are all the convincing we need for the Resistance:

    Remnant Comment: May God bless and keep this most courageous prince of the Church. Any person claiming to be a traditional Catholic, and yet criticizing Bishop Athanasius Schneider for doing this or for not doing that, should be dismissed as a rank interloper who can in no sense identify with the likes of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Michael Davies, and other pioneers of this movement who would have embraced Bishop Schneider as a gift from God.

    As one who's been in the fight for Catholic restoration all his life, I do not hesitate to publicly thank God for this man and to pledge The Remnant's prayer and unconditional support for his work. Please, God, guide and protect him, and Mary keep. MJM  


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #53 on: June 27, 2020, 01:43:19 AM »
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  • On 14th of June, Viganò has written another short letter, published on Blog: Chiesa e post concilio. Viganò repeats the idea that it's better to ditch the whole robber council instead of removing single heretical propositions (proposizioni eretiche o che favoriscono l’eresia).

    Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli, a disciple of Romano Amerio, has commented on that letter (blog-post Comment of 15 giugno 2020 19:14). He calls Viganò "the first of all bishops to take the right position" and "more useful than Lefebvre".
    What a grotesque assertion!

    A Johnny-come-lately (with all due respect your Excellency) whose conversion is yet to be established, his position more useful than the great Archbishop who almost single-handedly stood uncompromisingly against the modernist onslaught and preserved for us the Catholic Faith and Liturgy in all its purity and exposed the cunning of the modernists at every turn, not 50 years later but as it it happened, from day one of the Council... what an absurdity. Such a comment is diabolical and it should sicken all Traditional Catholics of whatever persuasion.

    A few brief reminders of Archbishop Lefebvre's teaching taken from Ecclesia Militans:

    Here are a few quotes of the Archbishop regarding the Council:
     
    “It is certain that with the 250 conciliar fathers of the Coetus we tried with all the means put at our disposal to keep the liberal errors from being expressed in the texts of the Council.  this meant that we were able all the same to limit the damage, to change these inexact or tendentious assertions, to add that sentence to rectify a tendentious proposition, an ambiguous expression.
     
     “But I have to admit that we did not succeed in purifying the Council of the liberal and modernist spirit that impregnated most of the schemas.  Their drafters indeed were precisely the experts and the Fathers tainted with this spirit.  Now, what can you do when a docuмent is in all its parts drawn up with a false meaning?  It is practically impossible to expurgate it of that meaning.  It would have to be completely recomposed in order to be given a Catholic spirit.”
    (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, “They Have Uncrowned Him”, Angelus Press, English Edition, 1988, quote is contained in the Chapter called “The Robber Council of Vatican II”, Emphasis Mine)
     
    “I do not hesitate to affirm that the Council brought to reality the conversion of the Church to the world.  I leave it to you to reflect who the moving spirit of this spirituality was:  it is enough for you to remember the one whom Our Lord Jesus Christ calls the Prince of this World.”
    (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, “They Have Uncrowned Him”, Angelus Press, English Edition, 1988, quote is contained in the Chapter called “A Pacifist Council”, Emphasis Mine)
     
    This fight between the Church and the liberals and modernism is the fight over Vatican II. It is as simple of that. And the consequences are far-reaching.
     
    “The more one analyzes the docuмents of Vatican II, and the more one analyzes their interpretation by the authorities of the Church, the more one realizes that what is at stake is not merely superficial errors, a few mistakes, ecuмenism, religious liberty, collegiality, a certain Liberalism, but rather a wholesale perversion of the mind, a whole new philosophy based on modern philosophy, on subjectivism.” 
    (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, “Two Years after the Consecrations”, Address Given to Priests in Econe, Switzerland on September 6, 1990, Emphasis Mine)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
    « Reply #54 on: June 27, 2020, 10:09:27 AM »
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  • Viganò starts his June 9th letter with "I read with great interest the essay of His Excellency Athanasius Schneider ..." and he compliments "His Excellency’s study summarizes, with the clarity that distinguishes the words of those who speak according to Christ ... " and Viganò praises Schneider "The merit of His Excellency’s essay ... ".

    Let's assume that Scheider is 100% sure that the letter is indeed of Viganò and not of some ViganQ-phantom. Why doesn't he mention the name of Viganò? Why does Schneider not answer to "we inevitably fall under the condemnation of the Decree Lamentabili"? Why does Schneider simply repeat his stance without touching the objection of Viganò? What is Schneider's letter good for, if he acts as if Viganò hadn't said anything? Schneider is acting as if Viganò didn't exist at all.

    It's clear: The proposal of Viganò is beyond any allowed position. It can't even be mentioned or responded to. Guys like Skojec are thick enough to reveal that they agree, but Schneider cannot. Schneider knows that admitting a "parallel church" and admitting "we all knew that the Council would be more or less a revolution" (Viganò) would reveal that he's been a revolutionary all the time, too. The only thing uncomprehensible is, how Viganò can on the one hand admit to having served the Antichrist for 50 years, and on the other hand not figure that that implies that he lost all credibility and should retire in hiding.

    Assuming that it is Viganò.

    Yes, it's the same "avoid the elephant in the room" crap that makes of the religion of Our Lord - the ultimate Truth itself - appear as just another human response (a comforting ideology or myth that will not brook or even acknowledge anything that rocks its comfortable sailing) to help one get through the travails of this world. Any "truth" that ignores relevant questions and problems (beams in its eye) is unworthy of asking what Our Lord asks of each of us - our very lives - if necessary. 

    Thank God Vigano at least recognizes the problems and that these issues go to the heart of credibility and the battle for Truth itself. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.