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Author Topic: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'  (Read 1875 times)

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Offline Meg

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Just my opinion, but it might help if +Vigano mentioned, in a positive manner, the work of Archbishop Lefebvre (and also maybe Bp. de Castro Mayer).

I don't think that Opus Dei is a fan of +ABL or the SSPX (hence Michael Voris' animosity for +ABL/SSPX), and so if +Vigano mentions +ABL, then it might mean that he has no affiliation with Opus Dei.
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


Offline Ladislaus

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Why do you always get upset? Fact is, Viganò is said to have been in hiding for quite some time. One might even ask, whether all these blog-posts really are his (or of his ghostwriters in his interest), or whether he is alive at all.

That might be a legitimate line of inquiry.  But Fr. Jenkins said that he knew the man releasing the letters and appears confident that the man is trustworthy.


Offline Ladislaus

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To all the conspiracy theorists, let me ask, to what end would the conspirators make these moves?  What good will be accomplished by declaring that V2 must be rejected as filled with error/heresy, that the NOM must be rejected as Protestantized/paganized, etc.?  To what end would they reject religious indifferentism and promote EENS?  Typically the conspiracy is to spin these V2 docuмents/reforms as mostly Catholic and just needing some hermeneutic of continuity.  For the life of me I cannot envision what possible goal would the conspirators have in releasing something like this.  That is why I have no doubt that these letters are genuine.  None of you has explained what the goal of said conspiracy would be, the cui bono of the entire thing.

Unless you could explain what the conspiractors hope to accomplish, you sound like you just have a petty disdain for Vigano because he hasn't been a lifelong Traditional Catholic.

You seriously remind me of the guys in Our Lord's parable who worked all day but then resented the late-comer who got paid the same.

Offline Struthio

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Ladislaus, whether Viganò or ViganQ, he has expressed his concern that this Covid Hoax is against Trump and corresponding forces in other countries. Trump needed and needs Catholics to be (re)elected, and Viganò has declared himself to be a campaign worker. You can read that even on modernist diocesan websites, like e.g. domradio.de ("Archdiocese" of Cologne). Not much of a "Conspiracy Theory".

Modernists do not believe anything but that it is a good idea to lead and use simple folks for their purpose. Just like all sorts of Communists. Ratzinger was too much of a peacock, he thought that "his" Vat II Parteitag is the Gold standard for the church-of-man of the new pentecost. "C'mon, let's do as if God existed" had been his sermon for decades. Bergoglio laughs about such a "Weihnachtsmann" and the rest of modernist Rome does so too. Viganò said that Ratzinger's stroke of genius hemeneutic of continuity is drivel.

Why not dump V2? It's served it's purpose in the 1960s and has been outdated for decades. In 2020, dumping V2 does what Ratzinger really wanted and wants. That's the message of Viganò.

As you can see everywhere including trad.inc, all Catholics/"Catholics" who aren't liberals/communists approve Viganò. That's what Trump needs.

I think it's ludicrous to imagine that Viganò is the saviour of the sedeplenist/sedevacantist remnant. I can't imagine Viganò joining with Tomás de Aquino Ferreira da Costa or Cekada or ... Trump recommends him. He's much too much important. The whole of trad-land probably is too much a joke in his eyes, to even think about whether they all might be vagantes or not.

Meg has mentioned a good criterion: He would have to comment on de Castro Mayer, Lefebvre, Thục, etc. to make clear what game he's playing.

Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

Offline Meg

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I still support the work of +Vigano. It's just may be a good idea to keep an eye on the Opus Dei cult affiliations. But it's not a huge deal at this point, for me anyway. 
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


Offline Ladislaus

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Ladislaus, whether Viganò or ViganQ, he has expressed his concern that this Covid Hoax is against Trump and corresponding forces in other countries. Trump needed and needs Catholics to be (re)elected, and Viganò has declared himself to be a campaign worker. You can read that even on modernist diocesan websites, like e.g. domradio.de ("Archdiocese" of Cologne). Not much of a "Conspiracy Theory".

Modernists do not believe anything but that it is a good idea to lead and use simple folks for their purpose. Just like all sorts of Communists. Ratzinger was too much of a peacock, he thought that "his" Vat II Parteitag is the Gold standard for the church-of-man of the new pentecost. "C'mon, let's do as if God existed" had been his sermon for decades. Bergoglio laughs about such a "Weihnachtsmann" and the rest of modernist Rome does so too. Viganò said that Ratzinger's stroke of genius hemeneutic of continuity is drivel.

Why not dump V2? It's served it's purpose in the 1960s and has been outdated for decades. In 2020, dumping V2 does what Ratzinger really wanted and wants. That's the message of Viganò.

As you can see everywhere including trad.inc, all Catholics/"Catholics" who aren't liberals/communists approve Viganò. That's what Trump needs.

I think it's ludicrous to imagine that Viganò is the saviour of the sedeplenist/sedevacantist remnant. I can't imagine Viganò joining with Tomás de Aquino Ferreira da Costa or Cekada or ... Trump recommends him. He's much too much important. The whole of trad-land probably is too much a joke in his eyes, to even think about whether they all might be vagantes or not.

Meg has mentioned a good criterion: He would have to comment on de Castro Mayer, Lefebvre, Thục, etc. to make clear what game he's playing.

Sorry, but I don't follow the logic.  He's talking about dumping Vatican II and returning to the Church's Tradition, not just dumping it and moving on with the status quo.  He made that quite clear.

If you're saying it has to do with re-electing Trump, the latest letters about Vatican II go over the head of 99% of the electorate, and probably 80% of Catholics.

Still not buying that this is some kind of attack against Traditional Catholicism.  Whether Vigano has become fully Traditional or not, that's a matter for dispute, but his latest is far more Traditional than the recent Bishop Fellay, who says that 95% of Vatican II is good and that it's protected Magisterium, and that we should apply a hermeneutic of continuity.  +Fellay pays lip service to +Lefebvre, but he's less Traditional than Vigano at this point.

What I see appears genuine.  There's a man who got so fed up with the coverup of pedophilia by Bergoglio and the entire Vatican apparatus that he couldn't take it anymore and then blew the whistle.  Upon further reflection of Bergoglio, he analyzed what was wrong with the guy, and he took the next step, the realization that the core of Bergoglio's errors have been there in all the papal claimants since Vatican II.  We have people like Ann Barnhardt and many of the sedebenediciplenist (B16=pope) camp who denounce Bergoglio as a heretic but refuse to take the next step, the acknowledgement that Bergoglio isn't as different from his predecessors as everyone would like to think.

We have Vigano's letter helping wake up people like Dr. Taylor Marshall, who used to worship Ratzinger and Wojtyla and have recently agreed with Vigano that these men promoted the same errors.  If this is some kind of a ploy, then it's backfiring badly.

I'm just not seeing it.

Offline Ladislaus

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I still support the work of +Vigano. It's just may be a good idea to keep an eye on the Opus Dei cult affiliations. But it's not a huge deal at this point, for me anyway.

Sure, it's not a huge deal for you, but it's causing massive waves through the conservative Novus Ordo camp.  One of these people on the fence (I forgot his name) said that Vigano now gives him "permission" to start thinking the same way.  There are so many people there held back by this notion that we must be loyal and faithful (as Dr. Marhall admitted he was too) ... so they apply the violent contortions of the hermeneutic of continuity gymnastics out of a sense of loyalty.  Dr. Marshall agreed wtih Vigano that this is an exercise in futility, that one should have to contort every limb of one's body to force-fit this Modernist crap into Tradition.  He was criticized for using the term "permission", but what is meant by this is simply that Vigano is saying that, hey, it's OK not to be loyal to these people.

I think that we Traditional Catholics live in a kind of bubble, and these words are, in a sense, just preaching to the choir for us.  But it also helps confirm weak Traditional Catholics with the thought that, "see, I'm not insane, here's a man who independently came to the same conclusions that Traditional Catholics have agreed with for so long now."  It's like the encouragement and morale boost one receives when, say, a high-ranking member of the Soviet Communist Party defects to the West and tells everyone, "yeah, you were right; it's every bit as bad as you thought."

Offline Meg

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Sure, it's not a huge deal for you, but it's causing massive waves through the conservative Novus Ordo camp.  One of these people on the fence (I forgot his name) said that Vigano now gives him "permission" to start thinking the same way.  There are so many people there held back by this notion that we must be loyal and faithful (as Dr. Marhall admitted he was too) ... so they apply the violent contortions of the hermeneutic of continuity gymnastics out of a sense of loyalty.  Dr. Marshall agreed wtih Vigano that this is an exercise in futility, that one should have to contort every limb of one's body to force-fit this Modernist crap into Tradition.  He was criticized for using the term "permission", but what is meant by this is simply that Vigano is saying that, hey, it's OK not to be loyal to these people.

I think that we Traditional Catholics live in a kind of bubble, and these words are, in a sense, just preaching to the choir for us.  But it also helps confirm weak Traditional Catholics with the thought that, "see, I'm not insane, here's a man who independently came to the same conclusions that Traditional Catholics have agreed with for so long now."  It's like the encouragement and morale boost one receives when, say, a high-ranking member of the Soviet Communist Party defects to the West and tells everyone, "yeah, you were right; it's every bit as bad as you thought."

What I meant is that the Opus Dei affiliation by Vigano's friends isn't a big deal at this time, for me. Just a little deal.

I agree with what you write above. It's good that there are laity who are realizing that they don't have to agree with or be loyal those people (modernists). I just hope that there will be more of the conciliar hierarchy who will also come to that conclusion; and maybe even the SSPX? It might have a positive effect on the SSPX. Who knows.

I don't think that there will be any effective change from Modernism without the conciliar hierarchy coming to the same conclusion. After all, if Vigano were a layman - would many Catholics pay attention to him?

Good analogy regarding the Soviet Communist Party defector.
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29