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Author Topic: Rule Violator #2: JPaul  (Read 20703 times)

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2018, 09:28:54 PM »
Ignoramus and Flats:

You are model CI members, and I have no doubt at all that you two wackos will have a long, popular membership here.
Thanks for your flattery.  Your juvenile intellectual capacity is well deserved serving with the rats in the sewer tunnels.  You may want an award for the bully who always runs away.

Can we progress now with some real conversation without your diminutive qualities?

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Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #131 on: June 10, 2018, 11:16:03 AM »
As much as I respect +ABL, he was not a theologian, and nowhere close to the level of +Ottaviani and the others who studied the ‘perfect’ new mass and still found so many deficiencies that they characterized it as a protestantized departure from the catholic understanding of the mass, as taught by Trent.  

The countless ‘conservative’ novus ordo-ites who factlessly defend the novus ordo and its “abuses” (ie sacrileges) do so under the naive idea that the “true, pure” novus ordo is pleasing to God.  “If only the REAL novus ordo was used, like Paul VI wanted, then the Church’s problems would be fixed”, they say. And they wait for this nirvana-like utopia to one day happen, because they haven’t faced reality - that is, the novus ordo is not pure, will never be perfect and is inherently flawed.  

+Ottaviani and company studied the “pure, utopian” new mass and came away disgusted by its anti-catholic errors.  They studied the NOM in its “perfect” form, without any abuses/sacrileges, without its full Masonic/humanistic liturgy in place, before the widespread blasphemy of communion in the hand and all the other liturgical mayhem which was added into the Martin Luther-inspired mockery of Christ’s sacrifice of the cross.

It matters not if +Ottaviani changed his mind 100% about his critical study, all that matters are facts.  What he and his fellow theologians wrote about the evils of this new liturgy is still true, it’s problems still exist (and are now worse), it’s theology is still defunct, deficient and communistically deplorable.  

Nothing in +Ottaviani’s ‘change of heart’ letter challenges his previous theological assertions, nor does it change the reality that the NOM is a striking departure from Trent and 2,000 years of consistent catholic teaching on the purpose, goal and beauty of the Mass - which many V2 theologians readily, proudly and openly admit.



Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2018, 07:15:08 AM »
External intention?

Please quote the passage.

Internal intention is what is requisite for a valid intention.

The only bearing an external intention can have in the matter, is if it is a contrary external intention.

PS: I like how you are trying to make it seem as though Cardinal Ottaviani wrote the "Brief Critical Study."  

PPS: The Ottaviani Intervention wasa written before the NOM was officially promulgated.  Once that happened, here is what Ottaviani had to say:

“I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your ‘Doctrinal Note’ [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS.” (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Docuмentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343)

Cardinal Ottaviani published later yet another very relevant public statement in which he said: “The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS.”(In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 1970)
From the Ottaviani Intervention (emphasis mine):
..... All this, in short, changes the modus significandi of the words of Consecration--how they show forth the sacramental action taking place. The priest now pronounces the formulas for Consecration as part of an historical narrative, rather than as Christ's representative issuing the affirmative judgment "This is My Body." [29
29. As they appear in the context of the Novus Ordo, the words of Consecration could be valid in virtue of the priest's intention. But since their validity no longer comes from the force of the sacramental words themselves (ex vi verborum)--or more precisely, from the meaning (modus significandi) the old rite of the Mass gave to the formula--the words of Consecration in the New Order of Mass could also not be valid. Will priests in the near future, who receive no traditional formation and who rely on the Novus Ordo for the intention of "doing what the Church does," validly consecrate at Mass? One may be allowed to doubt it. 

Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2018, 07:55:47 AM »
The part you underlined towards the top about Archbishop Lefebvre expressing a doubt about the validity of the NOM is prefaced by the words, “In the translations...”

In other words, he is not speaking of doubt in the NOM as promulgated.

Tune in to a new thread for a new prediction...

Nonetheless, there were/are a lot of "translated" Masses, so that makes a lot of doubtfully valid Masses.

Re: Rule Violator #2: JPaul
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2018, 11:33:38 AM »
Ignoramus and Flats:

You are model CI members, and I have no doubt at all that you two wackos will have a long, popular membership here.
You were speculating elsewhere about why you get down votes, Sean.  I have given you many and this is sort of post that leads to it. 

It is not because I am a sede or object to the R&R position.  On the contrary, I voted R&R on a recent forum poll.  I have become more sympathetic to SVs as a result of this papacy.  I moved from considering them schismatic to seeing it as an error of fact.  But I am very far from accepting the SV position.

When I have voted down your posts, it is because I object to you making yourself an Inquisitor and to your belligerent style. I disliked your style when I saw it in the Anonymous subforum and did not know it was you.