Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction  (Read 1401 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline psalter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Reputation: +2/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • In another thread, Xavier Sem mentioned that the SSPX Bishops had received ordinary jurisdiction.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/abp-lefebvre-and-the-four-bishops-never-in-schism-never-excommunicated/msg649988/?topicseen#msg649988
    "Since the Pope has now granted even Ordinary Jurisdiction to the SSPX Bishops after 2015, as Bishop Fellay said, there is no problem."
     
    Does anyone know what H.E. Bishop Williamson's thoughts are on receiving ordinary jurisdiction? What about those Bishops H.E. has consecrated? Do they also receive ordinary jurisdiction? Does anyone know if the Sedevacantist Bishops possess ordinary or supplied jurisdiction?


    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +1323/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction
    « Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 12:28:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In another thread, Xavier Sem mentioned that the SSPX Bishops had received ordinary jurisdiction.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/abp-lefebvre-and-the-four-bishops-never-in-schism-never-excommunicated/msg649988/?topicseen#msg649988
    "Since the Pope has now granted even Ordinary Jurisdiction to the SSPX Bishops after 2015, as Bishop Fellay said, there is no problem."
     
    Does anyone know what H.E. Bishop Williamson's thoughts are on receiving ordinary jurisdiction? What about those Bishops H.E. has consecrated? Do they also receive ordinary jurisdiction? Does anyone know if the Sedevacantist Bishops possess ordinary or supplied jurisdiction?
    1. The SSPX do not have Ordinary Jurisdictions in their function as Bishops, other than for Ordinations. All their other jurisdiction is the same given to all Priest of the SSPX (marriages -with permission from the local Bishops, and confession).
    2. All the Bishops H.E. has consecrated and  the Sedevacantist Bishops operate under supplied jurisdiction.

    3. The consequences of using ordinary jurisdiction from Modernist is that once you agree to their terms you must play by the rules, which means no more claiming supplied jurisdiction until after you go through all the proper steps. For example, Pope Francis told Bishop Fellay that he (Bishop Fellay) can always come to him (Pope Francis) to obtain jurisdiction for marriages should a local bishop refuse, thus the SSPX can no longer use supplied jurisdiction as they have recourse to the Pope who already said he will give it if asked. 


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction
    « Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 02:13:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1. The SSPX do not have Ordinary Jurisdictions in their function as Bishops, other than for Ordinations. All their other jurisdiction is the same given to all Priest of the SSPX (marriages -with permission from the local Bishops, and confession).
    2. All the Bishops H.E. has consecrated and  the Sedevacantist Bishops operate under supplied jurisdiction.

    3. The consequences of using ordinary jurisdiction from Modernist is that once you agree to their terms you must play by the rules, which means no more claiming supplied jurisdiction until after you go through all the proper steps. For example, Pope Francis told Bishop Fellay that he (Bishop Fellay) can always come to him (Pope Francis) to obtain jurisdiction for marriages should a local bishop refuse, thus the SSPX can no longer use supplied jurisdiction as they have recourse to the Pope who already said he will give it if asked.
    Noob question: I get needing supplied jurisdiction *in the absence of ordinary jurisdiction*.  But if the Pope is willing to give ordinary jurisdiction, what exactly is wrong with that?  Isn't the whole point of supplied jurisdiction for an emergency in which ordinary jurisdiction can't be obtained without compromise? 

    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +1323/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction
    « Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 10:30:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Noob question: I get needing supplied jurisdiction *in the absence of ordinary jurisdiction*.  But if the Pope is willing to give ordinary jurisdiction, what exactly is wrong with that?  Isn't the whole point of supplied jurisdiction for an emergency in which ordinary jurisdiction can't be obtained without compromise?
    The problem in today's situation for traditionalist, such as the SSPX, is that the ordinary jurisdiction is given in return for a compromise. The SSPX had ordinary jurisdiction unjustly and illegally removed back in the 1970's but the Pope gives it today as if was for the first time. So in the Vatican's point of view, all the previous marriages are still considered invalid and illicit. The SSPX big mistake was accepting the jurisdiction without resolving the previous marriages. There are SSPX marriages that have been declared null and void by the priests and bishops, and one of the spouses re-married. So the Vatican still says the 2nd marriage is valid but the SSP says the 1st marriage is still valid, yet these cases are still unresolved. Yet what does the SSPX do? They say "thank you" publicly to the Pope, but they turn around and say to the faithful "don't' worry our marriages were always valid, and if the bishops do not cooperate, we will use our supplied jurisdiction". The compromise is "let's forget about the past, let's not resolve publicly who was right and who was wrong, let go on think whatever you want to think just as long as going forward we can agree".

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction
    « Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 11:36:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Aren't there different degrees/types of jurisdiction?  Didn't the sspx receive ordinary jurisdiction for confessions only?  I don't think they received jurisdiction for marriages, which is why they are allowing novus ordo priests to come and "officiate" at weddings.  Further, there is also jurisdiction received from the diocesan bishop, which the sspx certainly doesn't have, at each of its chapels, in every country, in all parts of the world.  If the pope gave them this already, then they wouldn't need a personal prelature.


    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +1323/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Resistance and Sedevacantist Bishops and supplied jurisdiction
    « Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 12:27:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Aren't there different degrees/types of jurisdiction?  Didn't the sspx receive ordinary jurisdiction for confessions only?  I don't think they received jurisdiction for marriages, which is why they are allowing novus ordo priests to come and "officiate" at weddings.  Further, there is also jurisdiction received from the diocesan bishop, which the sspx certainly doesn't have, at each of its chapels, in every country, in all parts of the world.  If the pope gave them this already, then they wouldn't need a personal prelature.
    I am not knowledgeable enough to know if there are different degrees/types of jurisdiction, so you may be right.

    Jurisdictions for marriages are given either:
     1.) on a case by case basis as you correctly noted regarding the need for a Novus Ordo Priests to officiate the wedding 
     2.) or in advance, as some bishops have granted the SSPX jurisdiction for marriages within their dioceses without asking permission for each wedding.