Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Reflections About the Roman Proposal:  (Read 2384 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15064
  • Reputation: +9980/-3161
  • Gender: Male
Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
« on: October 05, 2013, 10:28:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "To move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone.  

    This would have hugely negative consequences as intra and ad extra.  

    There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours.

    On the contrary, the discussions have shown that they will not accept anything in our criticisms.

    It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of the discussions and findings...

    Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the Fraternity, and indeed more than diplomatic.

    It would be a lack of consistency, honesty, and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and [the] moral authority we enjoy.

    The mere fact of going down this path will lead us to mistrust and division.

    Many superiors and priests have a problem of conscience and will oppose it.

    Authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned and undermined...

    Accordingly, this is not the time to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issues), and it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change...

    For the good of the Society and Tradition, this 'Pandora's Box' must be closed as quickly as possible, to avoid the discredit and demolition of authority, the disputes, dissensions and divisions, perhaps with no return."

    -Quoted in Fr. Rioult's "The Impossible Reconciliation," (English language edition), p. 32.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 10:37:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On the one hand, it would seem Bishop de Galarreta's foresight is prescient indeed.

    On the other hand, he is now complicit in the betrayal he was condemning.

    Apparently, the odious dishonesty becomes OK, if by his own words,

    "...we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change..."?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MaterDominici

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 5442
    • Reputation: +4156/-96
    • Gender: Female
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 10:38:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wow.

    Why oh why didn't these bishops rally the support needed to replace Bp Fellay the minute he made it clear he was headed down this disasterous path?   :sad:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 05:59:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Wow.

    Why oh why didn't these bishops rally the support needed to replace Bp Fellay the minute he made it clear he was headed down this disasterous path?   :sad:



    If I were to attempt an answer, it's the same thing that happened
    to others in the past:  You don't lose your faith overnight.  "It takes
    time, my little pretty, it takes time.  These things must be done
    delicately."
     (Wizard of Oz, Wicked Witch of the West to Dorothy)


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 06:59:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Wow.

    Why oh why didn't these bishops rally the support needed to replace Bp Fellay the minute he made it clear he was headed down this disasterous path?   :sad:


    Fr. Rioult reveals that these "Reflections" were aired at the October, 2011 meeting of superiors in Albano, Italy.

    You may remember Bishop Williamson was not invited to this meeting (unless he comply with conditions all knew he would not).

    Anyway, according to Fr. Rioult:

    "Bishop Fellay refused to follow these counsels and showed a grave lack of prudence.  He was psychologically unable to say no to Rome. (p. 32)"

    The rest of the SSPX members, realizing this meant they were all faced with fracturing the Fraternity if they opposed the liberalism of Bishop Fellay, decided to rally around him, rather than suffer an even bigger split by choosing doctrine.

    Remember all the talk in 2012 about them having recovered their profound unity (especially after the Chapter)?

    Remember all the talk about authority, authority, authority?

    This inside glimpse puts it all in historical context.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 07:33:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The rest of the SSPX members, realizing this meant they were all faced with fracturing the Fraternity if they opposed the liberalism of Bishop Fellay, decided to rally around him, rather than suffer an even bigger split by choosing doctrine.


    They clearly put their own pious union before doctrine.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 07:43:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You could have a dozen more threads about the SSPX but in reality they formally surrendered and are not the SSPX of Archbishop Lefebvre. Those who still assist at SSPX chapels and "resist" from within are actually the 'delusional' ones. Clare, a Morganite over on Ignis Ardens was quick to call others 'delusional' yet their SSPX has surrendered.  

    It matters little if Bishop Fellay was to resign as the SSPX crossed the line, lowered the bar and waved a white flag to the Modern World.

    It's quite comical if people think the SSPX are the great resistance.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31202
    • Reputation: +27121/-495
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 01:28:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    "To move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone.  

    This would have hugely negative consequences as intra and ad extra.  

    There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours.

    On the contrary, the discussions have shown that they will not accept anything in our criticisms.

    It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of the discussions and findings...

    Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the Fraternity, and indeed more than diplomatic.

    It would be a lack of consistency, honesty, and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and [the] moral authority we enjoy.

    The mere fact of going down this path will lead us to mistrust and division.

    Many superiors and priests have a problem of conscience and will oppose it.

    Authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned and undermined...

    Accordingly, this is not the time to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issues), and it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change...

    For the good of the Society and Tradition, this 'Pandora's Box' must be closed as quickly as possible, to avoid the discredit and demolition of authority, the disputes, dissensions and divisions, perhaps with no return."

    -Quoted in Fr. Rioult's "The Impossible Reconciliation," (English language edition), p. 32.



    Talk about a bombshell!

    It's sad, though, that despite this clear knowledge +De Galarreta rescinded his support for the "Letter of the Three to the One" (the original letter that exposed this new SSPX orientation to the world, which was sent to +Fellay in Summer 2012) and is not supporting the Resistance.

    Meanwhile, +De Mallerais is more attached to the SSPX than to the purity of Catholic doctrine.

    Now do you see why +Lefebvre valued +Williamson so much (as to pick him first)?

    Even though he IS a convert and all...

     :rolleyes:

    Apparently converts can be better than cradle Catholics.

    +Williamson as early as 2001 was telling his pupils: (I'm paraphrasing here):

    Quote from: Ideas conveyed by +Williamson
    The SSPX is favored by God today because we have the truth. But if a day ever comes when the SSPX compromises, and we no longer fight for the truth, then God will abandon the SSPX and she will be cast out like salt that has lost its savor. As for who will carry on the fight, God can raise up children of Abraham from the very stones...   The SSPX isn't special because we're the SSPX, we're special because we have the truth. God doesn't need the SSPX.


    And, of course, +W has always been eminently concerned about Truth/Doctrine. Everything else comes from that.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was the same way. You be the judge: Who is the true successor to Abp. Lefebvre and his work?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 01:39:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    "To move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone.  

    This would have hugely negative consequences as intra and ad extra.  

    There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours.

    On the contrary, the discussions have shown that they will not accept anything in our criticisms.

    It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of the discussions and findings...

    Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the Fraternity, and indeed more than diplomatic.

    It would be a lack of consistency, honesty, and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and [the] moral authority we enjoy.

    The mere fact of going down this path will lead us to mistrust and division.

    Many superiors and priests have a problem of conscience and will oppose it.

    Authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned and undermined...

    Accordingly, this is not the time to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issues), and it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change...

    For the good of the Society and Tradition, this 'Pandora's Box' must be closed as quickly as possible, to avoid the discredit and demolition of authority, the disputes, dissensions and divisions, perhaps with no return."

    -Quoted in Fr. Rioult's "The Impossible Reconciliation," (English language edition), p. 32.



    Talk about a bombshell!

    It's sad, though, that despite this clear knowledge +De Galarreta rescinded his support for the "Letter of the Three to the One" (the original letter that exposed this new SSPX orientation to the world, which was sent to +Fellay in Summer 2012) and is not supporting the Resistance.

    Meanwhile, +De Mallerais is more attached to the SSPX than to the purity of Catholic doctrine.

    Now do you see why +Lefebvre valued +Williamson so much (as to pick him first)?

    Even though he IS a convert and all...

     :rolleyes:

    Apparently converts can be better than cradle Catholics.

    +Williamson as early as 2001 was telling his pupils: (I'm paraphrasing here):

    Quote from: Ideas conveyed by +Williamson
    The SSPX is favored by God today because we have the truth. But if a day ever comes when the SSPX compromises, and we no longer fight for the truth, then God will abandon the SSPX and she will be cast out like salt that has lost its savor. As for who will carry on the fight, God can raise up children of Abraham from the very stones...   The SSPX isn't special because we're the SSPX, we're special because we have the truth. God doesn't need the SSPX.


    And, of course, +W has always been eminently concerned about Truth/Doctrine. Everything else comes from that.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was the same way. You be the judge: Who is the true successor to Abp. Lefebvre and his work?


    There was only one flaw in Bishop de Galarreta's "Reflections:"

    It contained this little time-bomb (which apparently was not missed by the General Council):

    "it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change..."

    The inverse implication being that, so long as there was consensus and resolution to do all the things he just got done condemning, well, it was no longer a betrayal, imprudent, and dishonest.

    Also latent within this same little time-bomb is the suggestion that unity is more important than anything else.

    The rest is history; it is the principle which has snuffed a wider resistance within the ranks.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Graham

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +1886/-16
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 01:53:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    "To move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone.  

    This would have hugely negative consequences as intra and ad extra.  

    There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours.

    On the contrary, the discussions have shown that they will not accept anything in our criticisms.

    It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of the discussions and findings...

    Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the Fraternity, and indeed more than diplomatic.

    It would be a lack of consistency, honesty, and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and [the] moral authority we enjoy.

    The mere fact of going down this path will lead us to mistrust and division.

    Many superiors and priests have a problem of conscience and will oppose it.

    Authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned and undermined...

    Accordingly, this is not the time to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issues), and it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change...

    For the good of the Society and Tradition, this 'Pandora's Box' must be closed as quickly as possible, to avoid the discredit and demolition of authority, the disputes, dissensions and divisions, perhaps with no return."

    -Quoted in Fr. Rioult's "The Impossible Reconciliation," (English language edition), p. 32.



    It is prescient, as was said, but I do see some double-talk in this quotation. The bolded paragraph is strange. My reading is that he was not in principle opposed to a practical agreement with Rome. He seems to be saying that if at some future time the society achieves consensus in favour of a practical agreement, then a practical agreement would become acceptable. The primary point levied against it is that, at this time, it would lead to questioning of authority and disunity. So, reading this, it isn't surprising at all that +de Galarreta would waffle.

    Offline Graham

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +1886/-16
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 01:54:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SeanJohnson

    There was only one flaw in Bishop de Galarreta's "Reflections:"

    It contained this little time-bomb (which apparently was not missed by the General Council):

    "it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change..."

    The inverse implication being that, so long as there was consensus and resolution to do all the things he just got done condemning, well, it was no longer a betrayal, imprudent, and dishonest.

    Also latent within this same little time-bomb is the suggestion that unity is more important than anything else.

    The rest is history; it is the principle which has snuffed a wider resistance within the ranks.


    Yes, exactly.


    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 01:55:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Meanwhile, +De Mallerais is more attached to the SSPX than to the purity of Catholic doctrine.

    Now do you see why +Lefebvre valued +Williamson so much (as to pick him first)?


    Both +De Galarreta and +De Mallerais were built up to something they never were. They were never fighters.

    There is no doubt that both +De Mallerais and +De Galarreta are more attached to the SSPX than the purity of Catholic doctrine.

    I heard +De Mallerais speak twice. I thought his history of the SSPX talk very scripted.This was in Athlone a few years ago. I heard him before that in Dublin in Wynn's hotel.

    Only Bishop Williamson has remained true to the Archbishop.

    The SSPX has compromised and both +De Galarreta and +De Mallerais have compromised.

    Offline Graham

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +1886/-16
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 02:00:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SeanJohnson

    There was only one flaw in Bishop de Galarreta's "Reflections:"

    It contained this little time-bomb (which apparently was not missed by the General Council):

    "it is neither right nor prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before we ourselves have the conviction, consensus, and the resolution to change..."

    The inverse implication being that, so long as there was consensus and resolution to do all the things he just got done condemning, well, it was no longer a betrayal, imprudent, and dishonest.

    Also latent within this same little time-bomb is the suggestion that unity is more important than anything else.

    The rest is history; it is the principle which has snuffed a wider resistance within the ranks.


    Quote from: Bp. Williamson
    How could the capitulants not see that “respect for Superiors” was being put in front of the Faith ? How could they not insist that the doctrinal problem, by far the most important problem in front of the whole Chapter, should be made clear, until all of them could fully grasp what action needed to be taken immediately, and not cleverly postponed until the end of the Chapter ? The answer must be that collectively they were, like the bishops of Vatican II, children of the modern world for whom the doctrine of the Faith is not a vital necessity, but just something one learns in the seminary to become a priest, and then honours, but more or less disregards.

    Offline Nishant

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +0/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 02:12:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • About a year later, Bp. de Galarreta said

    Quote
    Then there was the Chapter.  I cannot give you too many details, since we are bound by confidentiality, but Bishop Fellay himself has already revealed certain things, and some elements were specified in the Final Declaration.  These are the conditions that you already know.  What I can tell you is that Divine Providence helped us during the Chapter clearly and perceptibly.

    It went very well, I tell you quite frankly;  we were able to speak calmly, freely, openly;  we were able to address the crucial problems, even though we had to omit other questions that had been on the initial agenda.  We took all the time necessary to debate and we compared points of view, as is fitting among members of the same congregation, of the same army.  That causes no problem;  the Society is not a girls’ school, right?  Then if from time to time there are debates among us, one should not make a big thing out of it either.  Read Cardinal Pie when he supports public debate with the bishops, in France, in the nineteenth century.  He justifies them, he explains why, he says that it is a combat, and so there you have it!  

    That is to say, one should not make a tragedy out of it either.  The tragedy would be to abandon the Faith, but it is normal that there are debates on questions of prudential judgment about one thing or another.  There are different aspects, there are temperaments, there are situations….  It is extremely complicated, and one cannot draw a sword to cut the Gordian knot by saying:  “There, I resolve the question in one fell swoop.”  No!  The Chapter took place, as I told you, and I think that we really drew some useful lessons from the trials that we have had, even though it is not perfect, which is another aspect to keep in mind.  In our life, everything happens in imperfect circuмstances;  read the history of the Church!  We must not demand a perfection that is not of this world, but we must have our eyes fixed on the essentials, on what counts;  afterward you can let a lot of things slide.  Don’t you do that in your family life?  Yes, you do that.  Otherwise nothing stands in this world, in this life, and even among us.

    Some people worry:  “Oh, yes, but…!”  It is necessary to see the complexity of the problem, of the situation.  And don’t forget that there is also the part played by the passions.  They exist even among us.  All this is to say that in my opinion we must not carp about these questions.  We have to see whether the essentials are there or not.

    As I see it, we have truly overcome the crisis, we got through it, and in the way that we were supposed to, especially in the practical measures, thanks to the debates that allowed us to clarify some points face to face, to weigh the arguments well, under all their aspects, to sort through them, to arrive at a more perfect insight and clarity about the situation, which is the good thing about trials if you learn from them.  Based on these extremely important and productive discussions, we have established some conditions that could allow us to envisage hypothetically a canonical normalization ...

    Besides, if we think about it, if a pope one day grants us these conditions, he is the one who will be dealing the first blow to the edifice of Vatican Council II and the conciliar Church, for he would be admitting by this very act that the Council contains errors, that we can refuse it, and that a return to Tradition is necessary.  As soon as a Pope takes into consideration these demanding conditions, all but impossible from a human point of view, there would be war in the conciliar Church.  The so-called conciliar Church would be blown up, that is for sure.  And that is why the canonical question is nothing but a little detail in our eyes.  For if a pope decides to grant us the first two points, that means that he is ready to grant us everything, including on the canonical level; and we are of course going to ask for it.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Reflections About the Roman Proposal:
    « Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 05:13:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • bump
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."