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Offline SeanJohnson

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Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
« on: July 01, 2013, 09:18:50 PM »
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  • While I had declared I would no longer post, it seemed to me the good of the church and the sspx demanded this information gain as wide a readership as possible.

    So at the risk of a little humiliation (which will only do me good), here it is...

    A timely reminder in the wake of the June 27, 2013 Declaration of the SSPX.

    Posted by Shamus on Ignis Ardens as a rebuttal to the June 27, 2013 Declaration of the three sspx bishops:

    1) Refutes the assertion by Fr Themann that the conversion of Rome is merely a prudential precondition subject to replacement;

    2) Refutes the idea that cutting off dealings with heretical Rome is sedevacantist and schismatic;


    From an Anonymous Religious:



    In memory of a principal in danger of extinction:
    « NO CANONICAL AGREEMENT BEFORE A DOCTRINAL AGREEMENT »

    If Bishop Freppel rightly noted that the abandoning of principles inevitably leads to catastrophe, Cardinal Pie leaves us with some hope in affirming that even a small number of faithful who remain true to those principles is enough to safeguard their integrity and thus keep up a chance of restoring order.

    However, since the General Chapter in July 2012, the leadership of the SSPX seems to have abandoned a principle that it had hitherto strongly held; namely that it is impossible to envisage a practical agreement with the Vatican before satisfactorily resolving the doctrinal questions.

    On the following 13th October, Bishop de Galarreta might well try to explain that “what was done amounts to taking the whole doctrinal and liturgical question and making it a practical question”, the order is no longer respected and we can but fear the consequences that St Pius X warned of: “If the rule seems to be an obstacle to the action, some might say that to dissimulate and to compromise shall help the action succeed. By doing so one forgets the failsafe rules and obscures the principles on the pretext of a benefit that is nothing but an appearance. What shall remain of this construction without foundations, built on sand?”

    The aim of this study is to demonstrate, based on Revelation, Tradition and the concordant declarations of Archbishop Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated, that the above mentioned principle is absolutely catholic and may suffer neither abandon nor exception, being the will of God Himself and not forged by some traditionalist thinker allergic to all ralliement.


    I – Revelation

    In the Old Testament as in the New it is God’s firm and explicit will that the men He gratifies with His pure and true doctrine refrain absolutely from mixing with those who profess another, because of the risk of prevaricating.
       
    It is the first recommendation the Almighty makes in concluding the covenant with Moses: “Beware thou never join in friendship with the inhabitants of that land, which may be thy ruin: But destroy their altars, break their statues, and cut down their groves” (Ex. 34, 12-13).

    In turn, Our Lord often warned his disciples against the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees
    (Mt 16, 6 ; Mc 8, 15), against the false prophets disguised as sheep (Mt 7, 15) who lead many into error (Mt 24, 11), even were it possible the elect (Mt 24, 24).

    The apostles were so impressed by these warnings from the Divine Master that they forcefully repeated them to their own disciples:
    -  “Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.” (Rm. 16, 17).
      -  “As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.” (Gal. 1, 9).
    -  “If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.” (2 Jn 10).

    One could add still more passages from scripture but these suffice amply, being dictated by the Holy Ghost, to be convinced that the duty to keep clear of heretics is a God-given law.


    II – Tradition

    The early Church Fathers, bearing in mind these doctrinal anathemas, were moved to repeat the exhortation of Saint Paul: “A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid” (Tit. 3, 10).

    - “Avoid the heretics; they are the successors of the devil who seduced the first woman”- (St Ignatius of Antioch)
    -  “Flee all heretics!” (St Irenaeus).
    -  “Flee the poison of heretics!”(St. Anthony the Great)
    -  “Do not sit with heretics” (St Ephrem)

    And Saint Vincent of Lerins clarifies:
    - “The Apostle commands this intransigence to all generations: must always be anathematized  those who have a doctrine contrary to the received doctrine”.

    It is why Don Guéranger writes to Bishop d’Astros:
    - “One of the means to preserve faith, one of the first marks of unity, is the flight from heretics”.

    This « first mark of unity » concerns, naturally, the unity of faith, the first characteristic note of the Catholic Church which can have only “one God, one faith” (Eph. 4,5). This same Church which solemnly tells its future subdeacons to “Remain strong in the true catholic faith, for, according to the Apostle, all that is not of faith is sin (Ro. 14, 23), schism, foreign to the unity of the Church”.

    To better understand not only the seniority, but also the uncompromising character of our principle, we must engrave in our minds that during more than a thousand years of schism between the Byzantines and Rome there was never, without exception, concluded one single canonical agreement with the Uniates until they recognized the catholic doctrine over the disputed dogmas (Filioque, primacy of the Pope, etc.).

    It is what the Cardinal Ottaviani, Prefect of the Holy Office, recalled on the eve of the Council:
    “Once the truth is acknowledged, this truth over which the Church cannot compromise, all the children who return to her will find a Mother prepared to accommodate as magnanimously as is possible in matters of liturgy, traditions, discipline and humanity” (In Itinéraires No 70 p.6)


    III – The declarations of our Bishops

    - Archbishop Lefebvre: “supposing that Rome calls for a renewed dialogue, then, I will put conditions. I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue. No more.
    I will place the discussion at the doctrinal level: “Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you? Do you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei and Libertas of Leo XIII, Pascendi Gregis of Pius X, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Humani Generis of Pius XII? Are you in full communion with these Popes and their teachings? Do you still accept the entire Anti-Modernist Oath? Are you in favor of the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ? If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is useless to talk! As long as you do not accept the correction of the Council, in consideration of the doctrine of these Popes, your predecessors, no dialogue is possible. It is useless.””
    (Fideliter n. 66 nov-dec 1988, pp. 12-13).

    - Bishop Williamson:  “The greatest challenge to the SSPX in the next few years is to grasp the primacy of doctrine, and to measure everything else, and to pray, accordingly. In our sentimental world, the constant temptation is to go by feelings. Not going by feelings is what marked out Archbishop Lefebvre, and if in this respect we do not follow him, the SSPX will go the way of all flesh – into the arms of the (objective) destroyers of the Church. […] Doctrine, doctrine, doctrine!” (Angelus Press, 21 June 2008).

    - Bishop Fellay : “…the clear awareness of the much more profound key issue which we have just described, forbids us to place the two issues on an equal footing. It is so clear for us that the issue of the Faith and of the spirit of faith has priority over all that we cannot consider a practical solution before the first issue is safely resolved. (…)
    For us, each day brings additional proof that we must clarify to a maximum the underlying issues before taking one more step toward a canonical situation, which is not in itself displeasing to us. But this is a matter of following the order of the nature of things, and to start from the wrong end would unavoidably place us in an unbearable situation. We have daily proofs of this. What is at stake is nothing more nor less than our future existence.”
    (Superior General's Letter to Friends and Benefactors no.73, 23 October 2008)

    - Bishop de Galarreta : “They evidently want to trouble us, to alarm us by pressuring us toward a purely practical agreement, which has always been the proposition of the cardinal [Hoyos]. Evidently you already know our thoughts. This way is a dead way; for us it is the road to death. Therefore there is no question of us following it. We cannot commit ourselves to betraying the public profession of Faith. Out of the question! It’s impossible.”
    (Homily 27 June 2008, Ecône)
    “This is not the moment to change the decision of the 2006 Chapter: no practical agreement without a solution to the doctrinal question.” (Report read at the Chapter in Albano 7 October 2011)

    - Bishop Tissier de Mallerais : “We refuse a purely practical agreement because the doctrinal question is fundamental. Faith comes before legality. We cannot accept a legalization without the problem of the faith being solved. (…) “It is a new religion that is not the Catholic religion. We do not want any compromise with this religion, any risk of corruption, not even any appearance of conciliation, and it is this appearance that our so-called "regularization" would give us.”
    (Interview in Rivarol, 1st June 2012).


    Conclusion

    The principle “No canonical agreement before a doctrinal agreement” is a principle:
    1)  Founded on the Word of God, which formally forbids us to associate with those who profess a different doctrine to that which has been handed down by the Church, “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1Tim. 3, 15), in particular for over a thousand years in its discussions with the Eastern schismatics.
    2)  Absolute and allowing for no circuмventing, reduction or exception, because it pertains of an “order of nature” as bishop Fellay rightly wrote in the past, and not a conventional process.

    In consequence, it being true that one cannot expect to recover after having abandoned certain principals, especially those which concern faith, we must today as much as ever not only hold the principal « NO CANONICAL AGREEMENT BEFORE A DOCTRINAL AGREEMENT »,
    but we must be watchful that it is not forgotten, altered or by-passed, and we must proclaim it come hell or high water for all good-willed souls to hear.

    May the Most Holy Hearts of Jesus and Mary come to our aid in the true combat of faith and keep us ever in their love!

    A religious.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline s2srea

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 09:31:17 PM »
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  • No need to feel humbled here- you are well respected! Thank you for sharing this.


    Offline wallflower

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 09:55:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    No need to feel humbled here- you are well respected! Thank you for sharing this.


    Agreed.

    Offline B from A

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 10:34:07 PM »
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  • Plus, you promised this a few weeks ago:

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    .....On the chance Fr. Rutledge's baseless assertion could gain traction because of the sheeple's refusal to inform themselves, I will begin building a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000; look for it on this website in a couple weeks.


    I think that would be very valuable.

    Offline hugeman

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      • h
    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 05:31:30 AM »
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  • Thank you, Sean.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 11:54:10 AM »
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  • .

    Not too long ago, about 60 or more years, it was a commonly
    heard proposition that some political leader was "a man of
    principles."  The very notion of how principles are important,
    and that a leader who also values and holds fast to principles
    is a good thing, was not lost on the public awareness.

    But that no longer seems to be the case.

    The word, principle, has fallen into disuse, and far too many
    can't even spell it.  They get it confused, for example, with
    principal, like principal and interest at the bank, or the
    principal of a school, or a lead actor in a play or a chief player
    in an orchestra, or the principal involved in a crime being
    different from an accessory to the crime.

    We live in an age when people with responsibilities can't
    explain the difference between the concept of their
    responsibility and their position of responsibility, or what
    the court is going to call them if they are convicted of being
    the chief perpetrator of a crime in that regard.  They don't
    even want to 'go there' so they don't want to think about
    the words.  

    What we have now is an SSPX SG who is not a man of
    principles, and we have a crowd of second generation pew-
    sitters who could not care less about principles per se.


    Appearances are the only thing that matters.


    It doesn't matter if he's lying through his teeth, because if
    he smiles while he's saying it, that's all they care about.

    It's not what he says, it's how he says it that counts.  

    And when +W stands up and speaks the truth, if it sounds
    a little harsh, then he is to be ignored because it appears
    to be repugnant, 'hateful' or 'uncharitable'. Never mind
    that it's true!



    It's the appearance alone that is to be considered.



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    Offline Domitilla

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 12:10:07 PM »
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  • You've hit the bullseye, Neil!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 12:12:47 PM »
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  • Quote from:  B from A
    Plus, you promised this a few weeks ago:

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    .....On the chance Fr. Rutledge's baseless assertion could gain traction because of the sheeple's refusal to inform themselves, I will begin building a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000; look for it on this website in a couple weeks.


    I think that would be very valuable.



    I received this PM today, and Ancien Regime has given me permission to publish this exciting news.

    Pray his project goes well:


    Sean,

    I noted in a post today that you are working on a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000? It that indeed true?

    I am writing because we may have some overlap going on here.

    I am in the midst of translating Fr. Olivier Rioult's book "L'impossible reconciliation" into English (with his gracious permission). This book is a compendium of what has happened. it has 3 parts and part 2 is a "Brief chronology of a descent into hell" where he starts with the years 2000-2003 (GREC, Campos, etc.), proceeds to 2004-2007 "Proceeding by steps," then 2007-2009 "When dreams deform reality," then 2009-2011 "Last Deception before the apotheosis" and finally, 2012 "The Mask Falls."

    The third part of the book consists of 100 pages of historical texts relevant to this crisis: beginning with the letter from the three bishops to the General Council and including pretty much everything from that point forward.

    I do not know what you planned to work on, but this may save you some work.

    Fr. Rioult has sent me a electronic copy of the book and has put a paper copy in the mail. I am working as fast as I can, but I do have a full-time job and a family. God willing, this should not take too terribly long, but then I have to find a way to publish the book. . . . time for a novena to St. Jerome?

    AR
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Domitilla

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 12:15:51 PM »
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  • This is truly great news.  I will purchase 10 translations of this work.  Godspeed!

    Offline B from A

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 12:45:30 PM »
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  • Yes, that is great news!   Thanks!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 01:49:41 PM »
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  • FYI,

    I also asked Ancien Regime if he could please translate Fr. Pivert's book (i.e., The one Menzingen wanted banned, and removed from SSPX chapels, but which Fr. de Cacqueray defended, and refused to comply with the suppression).

    Fr Pivert's book sold out in France in 2 weeks.

    Ancien Regime said he already has his next project lined up, so I do not think it is in the works:(



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »
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  • .


    Post
    Quote from:  B from A
    Plus, you promised this a few weeks ago:

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    .....On the chance Fr. Rutledge's baseless assertion could gain traction because of the sheeple's refusal to inform themselves, I will begin building a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000; look for it on this website in a couple weeks.


    I think that would be very valuable.



    Can someone point to the place where "Fr. Rutledge's baseless
    assertion" is articulated?



    It's hard to keep up with all this.  I have pity on Accordistas who are
    so far behind and getting further every day because they just don't
    want to look at the facts.  When I see something that I recognize is
    important and I don't know what it is all about (like this assertion of
    Fr. Rutledge for example) I don't mind asking questions, but I know
    all too many trad Catholics, even priests, who turn a blind eye to it.  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 04:44:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    FYI,

    I also asked Ancien Regime if he could please translate Fr. Pivert's book (i.e., The one Menzingen wanted banned, and removed from SSPX chapels, but which Fr. de Cacqueray defended, and refused to comply with the suppression).

    Fr Pivert's book sold out in France in 2 weeks.

    Ancien Regime said he already has his next project lined up, so I do not think it is in the works:(






    I recall seeing that, Fr. Pivert's book sold out in two weeks.  

    Let me guess:  The Angelus wasn't the publisher?  

    It must be tough to even find a publisher - this isn't exactly a
    standard category of fare.  I doubt a house like TAN (now it's
    becoming St. Benedict Press) or even Loreto Publications would
    want to touch it.  What about Preserving Christian Publications?  


    Quote from: SeanJohnson said, that ancien regime
    ...
    Fr. Rioult has sent me a electronic copy of the book and has put a paper copy in the mail. I am working as fast as I can, but I do have a full-time job and a family. God willing, this should not take too terribly long, but then I have to find a way to publish the book. . . . time for a novena to St. Jerome?

    AR

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    Offline magdalena

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 07:15:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    Post
    Quote from:  B from A
    Plus, you promised this a few weeks ago:

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    .....On the chance Fr. Rutledge's baseless assertion could gain traction because of the sheeple's refusal to inform themselves, I will begin building a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000; look for it on this website in a couple weeks.


    I think that would be very valuable.


    Can someone point to the place where "Fr. Rutledge's baseless
    assertion" is articulated?

    It's hard to keep up with all this.  I have pity on Accordistas who are
    so far behind and getting further every day because they just don't
    want to look at the facts.  When I see something that I recognize is
    important and I don't know what it is all about (like this assertion of
    Fr. Rutledge for example) I don't mind asking questions, but I know
    all too many trad Catholics, even priests, who turn a blind eye to it.  



    Perhaps here, Neil.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Militant-Anti-Resistance-Sermon-in-St-Paul-MN-2


    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline magdalena

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    Rebuttal of Fr Themann:
    « Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 07:17:30 PM »
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  • Nice to have you back, Sean.  
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42