Author Topic: Question on the current SSPX crisis (Read 4070 times)

brainglitch · « **Reply #15 on:** June 04, 2012, 05:19:52 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: brainglitch
Quote from: MyrnaM
So why would you even want to be attached to it? Why trust Bishop Fellay who is bringing you to at least say, the novus ordo is valid. That is a lie on the part of most SSPX faithful, therefore he wants the faithful to lie, even a lie is an offence to God, especially when it comes to His Church.

Matthew is correct it is a war on the part of SSPX.

It is your opinion that the novus ordo is invalid. Since I disagree with your opinion I am not a liar. Neither is Bishop Fellay on that issue. You are not the arbiter of truth, especially on a doubtful matter.

It's Myrna's opinion that the N.O. is invalid.

It's your opinion that not only the N.O. but maybe even a black mass (which is intended to be a mockery) may also actually be valid.

So, Brainglitch, if the N.O. mass is valid, and you still call it "hellish" then what gives here?

Why are you so hateful toward the novus ordo since you think it's valid?

Is it all just "opinion" to you?

Thats right Brainglitch if I agreed with you, we would both be wrong.

So your opinions on doubtful matter are identical with doctrine?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #16 on:** June 04, 2012, 07:25:54 PM »

In my case it is more than an opinion, and I have no doubt, that the Chair of Peter is missing a Catholic pope. You can call that whatever you want, and furthermore I think you are a plant sent here to confuse the SSPX faithful.

That of course IS an opinion!

lefebvre_fan · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:49:09 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

It's Myrna's opinion that the N.O. is invalid.

It's your opinion that not only the N.O. but maybe even a black mass (which is intended to be a mockery) may also actually be valid.

So, Brainglitch, if the N.O. mass is valid, and you still call it "hellish" then what gives here?

Why are you so hateful toward the novus ordo since you think it's valid?

Is it all just "opinion" to you?

Not defending brainglitch, but there is a difference between validity and licitness. A sacrament can be valid but illicit (e.g. schismatic sacraments, lay baptisms outside the case of necessity, etc.). So the Novus Ordo Mass can be said to be doubtfully valid, but undoubtedly illicit and displeasing to God (a position I hold, incidentally).

brainglitch · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:53:56 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

In my case it is more than an opinion, and I have no doubt, that the Chair of Peter is missing a Catholic pope. You can call that whatever you want, and furthermore I think you are a plant sent here to confuse the SSPX faithful.

That of course IS an opinion!

Yes, when in doubt, resort to ad hominems. The charge is so false that I will not even attempt to dispute it.

I would side with Williamson and Mallerais over Fellay, even if it meant excommunication, IF it became clear that an agreement is damaging to the Faith.You may think it is clear already, but I do not. That is an opinion, and we are certainly free to disagree on the matter. However, do not call me a heretic because I disagree with you.

brainglitch · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:55:44 PM »

Quote from: lefebvre_fan

Quote from: Capt McQuigg
It's Myrna's opinion that the N.O. is invalid.

It's your opinion that not only the N.O. but maybe even a black mass (which is intended to be a mockery) may also actually be valid.

So, Brainglitch, if the N.O. mass is valid, and you still call it "hellish" then what gives here?

Why are you so hateful toward the novus ordo since you think it's valid?

Is it all just "opinion" to you?

Not defending brainglitch, but there is a difference between validity and licitness. A sacrament can be valid but illicit (e.g. schismatic sacraments, lay baptisms outside the case of necessity, etc.). So the Novus Ordo Mass can be said to be doubtfully valid, but undoubtedly illicit and displeasing to God (a position I hold, incidentally).

That is essentially what I meant.

One small thing: I notice that many children raised in a traditional milieu have very little idea of the dangers of the new mass, simply because they have never seen it. Such children are in danger of losing their fear of what it is. They should know what it is, to understand better what we are fighting for, and the evils that modernism can lead to.

brainglitch · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:57:19 PM »

Quote

In my case it is more than an opinion

More than an opinion? Says who? What legitimate authority of the Church has announced "Sedevacantism is true and binding on all Catholics!".

Archbishop Lefebvre certainly said no such thing.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM »

Let me clarify!

In my case it is more than an opinion, other sedevacantist may have a doubt, but I don't.

brainglitch · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:13:39 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Let me clarify!

In my case it is more than an opinion, other sedevacantist may have a doubt, but I don't.

You have no doubts? Great!

But does that make your position binding on everyone else? Does it mean it is objectively true?

If I believed that the moon was made out of blue cheese, and I had no doubts-would that make it true? Would everyone else have to believe as I do?

In matters that are objectively doubtful, such as sedevacantism, Catholics may hold varying opinions. Just because you subjectively have no doubts, does not mean that the matter is not objectively doubtful

MyrnaM · « **Reply #23 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:38:09 PM »

Don't concern yourself the people here on cathinfo are not that easily influenced by myself or you for that matter. They are gounded in the Faith and are not going to step backward.

So your wasting your time trying to scare people here about sedevacantism, and double speaking your loyalty for Tradition and the novis ordo validy.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #24 on:** June 05, 2012, 03:13:28 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

It is hellish precisely because it has (in at least some cases) a valid consecration, and because it is in the case of the novus ordo a mockery of the true sacrifice, and in the case of the black mass a mockery of God far more grave.

Sacramental validity does not always equal good. The actual confection of the sacrament may be good, but the circuмstances are appalling.

If this is so, tell me again why you don't just go to the local novus ordo parish? Your mere disapproval of the aesthetics involved shouldn't stand in the way of partaking of "valid" sacraments.

Are there rubrics for a black mass?

It's not too late to confess. You are a novus ordite.