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Author Topic: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure  (Read 833 times)

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Offline cathman7

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Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
« on: March 15, 2018, 07:53:39 PM »
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    • Another thing to consider (at least for me) is how do we set about to prove the pertinacity of the Pope's heresies? For it is one thing to state that he has professed heresies but another to consider how pertinacious he is. Does he [the Pope] know exactly what Catholic doctrine is and subsequently assents to its contrary? Obviously, I don't mean to exonerate any of the Conciliar Popes but it seems that this issue is simply left to the judgment of every person (and this explains also why there is such a wide-range of opinions regarding the various points in the sedevacantist world). 

    Also, does a legal procedure even exist when we are to set up judging the man who occupies the See of Rome as outside the Church and subsequently not the Pope? It seems the sedevacantists don't even consider this but state that it is simply Divine Law that guides them. However if that is the case then what is the point of canon law? 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 04:36:52 AM »
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    •  Angelo Becciu comments on criticism of pope: He is calm, but the words still hurt
    As time goes by and reforms advance, criticisms of the pope also increase.
    Pope Francis is still favorably viewed, even though some harshly criticize his measures.
    MSGR. ANGELO BECCIU
     Substitute, Vatican Secretariat of State
     "He is calm. To confront this, he uses the Jesuit spirit and the third degree of asceticism: that of being indifferent to some things. But he is a human being, so he also suffers. Some critics, besides being gratuitous, reach the core of one's being. Like him betraying Church doctrine... this is not true. He does not accept this and it is the most serious accusation that one can receive."
    Angelo Becciu is number three in the Vatican. During a presentation of a book on St. Francis, he also revealed the simplicity with which the pope celebrated the fifth anniversary of his election.
    MSGR. ANGELO BECCIU
     Substitute, Vatican Secretariat of State
     "He was calm and content, but he didn't hold a celebration. Instead, he continued his work plans and meetings, as if nothing had happened."
    The book, "Francis the rebel," does not refer to the pope, but to the saint. The motive, established by its author, Enzo Fortunato, maintains that the saint's message has not gone out of style. Even more, his message is so necessary today, that even a pope decided to take his name.


    https://www.romereports.com/en/2018/03/14/angelo-becciu-comments-on-criticism-of-pope-he-is-calm-but-the-words-still-hurt/
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 08:49:05 AM »
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    • Pertinacity deals more with PERSISTENCE than with sincerity.  We can't judge the internal forum, only the external ... which is why the theologians discussing the possibility of a Pope vacating the See due to heresy speak of "MANIFEST" heresy.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 08:51:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: obscurus on March 15, 2018, 07:53:39 PM
    Also, does a legal procedure even exist when we are to set up judging the man who occupies the See of Rome as outside the Church and subsequently not the Pope? It seems the sedevacantists don't even consider this but state that it is simply Divine Law that guides them. However if that is the case then what is the point of canon law?

    Theologians dealing with the subject say that an Imperfect Council could recognize the fact of heresy, but there is no juridical procedure to remove a pope per se, since the Pope is not subject, per se, to Canon Law, although he is subject to any Divine Law that might be reflected in the Canon ... but not because of the Canon Law per se, but due to its being Divine Law.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 07:12:03 PM »
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    • Manifest:  The New Order Mess.  That should be outward fruits, right there!  That is public and as Manifest as you can get!
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    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:59:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 16, 2018, 08:49:05 AM
    Pertinacity deals more with PERSISTENCE than with sincerity.  We can't judge the internal forum, only the external ... which is why the theologians discussing the possibility of a Pope vacating the See due to heresy speak of "MANIFEST" heresy.
    That's fine but who has judged the conciliar popes persistence in manifest heresy? 
    Also, at what precise moment did John XXIII become a formal heretic and lose his office? Who determines that? 
    Paul VI? 
    John Paul II?
    Benedict XVI?
    Francis?
    It seems arbitrary. 
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    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 08:33:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: obscurus on March 16, 2018, 07:59:16 PM
    That's fine but who has judged the conciliar popes persistence in manifest heresy?
    Also, at what precise moment did John XXIII become a formal heretic and lose his office? Who determines that?
    Paul VI?
    John Paul II?
    Benedict XVI?
    Francis?
    It seems arbitrary.
    I meant who determines the precise moment etc.. for Paul VI and the rest. It was unclear as it stood. I need sleep.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Question about pertinacity and legal procedure
    « Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 11:10:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: obscurus on March 15, 2018, 07:53:39 PM
    Another thing to consider (at least for me) is how do we set about to prove the pertinacity of the Pope's heresies? For it is one thing to state that he has professed heresies but another to consider how pertinacious he is. Does he [the Pope] know exactly what Catholic doctrine is and subsequently assents to its contrary? Obviously, I don't mean to exonerate any of the Conciliar Popes but it seems that this issue is simply left to the judgment of every person (and this explains also why there is such a wide-range of opinions regarding the various points in the sedevacantist world).

    Also, does a legal procedure even exist when we are to set up judging the man who occupies the See of Rome as outside the Church and subsequently not the Pope? It seems the sedevacantists don't even consider this but state that it is simply Divine Law that guides them. However if that is the case then what is the point of canon law?
    According to Canon Law, the Pope is judged by no one.
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