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Author Topic: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?  (Read 2546 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 07:37:21 AM »
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    • I have no problem with the 1955 prayer, and for the very reasons stated.

    I have an issue with dropping perfidious because it specifies the Jєωs being prayed for, the ones who have rejected Christ.  Jєωs who have converted to the true faith are not being prayed for in this particular prayer.  They are prayed for earlier when Catholics are being prayed for.

    I find it incongruous in a prayer that should be motivated by charity to inject an element of contempt for them.  At this point, moved by charity, we are desiring their salvation rather than expressing our scorn.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 07:42:45 AM »
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    • We also skate on some thin theological ice when we reject the changes (1955) made by a legitimate Pope with unquestioned authority to do so.

    SSPV, I know, invokes the principal of epikeia ... that, were there a Pope alive today, he would not like the change.  I find that a bit too convenient.

    If SSPX priests do not genuflect, I also find that to be problematic.  They claim to accept all the changes through 1962 but then pick and choose a few things.  If I recall, the second Confiteor was dropped in the 1962 Missal.  But the SSPX put it back in.  So do you follow the 1962 Missal or do you not?  Otherwise, the liturgical practices have as their author the personal preferences of those offering the Mass.  That is foreign to Catholic principles.  Either you accept it or you do not -- you do not mix liturgies and in effect end up creating your own.  On whose authority?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 08:33:02 AM »
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    • I agree.  Unless you reject John XXIII as pope, AND Pius XII, then you have to accept the genuflection and the removal of perfidious.  This is part of the 62 missal, which is a revision of Quo Primum.  However, the changes made in 2008 by +Benedict to the 62 missal I think are non-binding, because he made these changes, legally, as part of his motu, and not as a revision of the 62 missal/Quo Primum.  I don't think such changes are legally in force.

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    If I recall, the second Confiteor was dropped in the 1962 Missal.  But the SSPX put it back in.  So do you follow the 1962 Missal or do you not?
    We had a thread on this a few months ago, and Drew was involved with explaining the history of the 62 missal; it's quite complex.  Basically, John XXIII issued the 62 missal, ordinary form, which mainly updated the calendar and confirmed the 1955 Holy Week changes.  This first edition did NOT delete the 2nd confiteor, nor did it have the addition of St Joseph to the canon.  So, in my opinion, these changes are not part of the 62 missal.  Between the years 62-65, there were "supplemental" changes to the 62 missal, none of which mentioned Quo Primum in their laws, so this shows they are not really part of the 62 law.
    .
    In fact, if you go out to order a 62 missal on-line, there are some which have the canon intact (with no St Joseph) and they provide you with a sticker to place over the prayer, in order to add his name, because this was a "later" change, after the original 62 edition was already printed.
    .
    I think this is why +ABL kept the 2nd Confiteor and other minor things.  Because he accepted the original 62 missal but not the supplemental add-ons.  This makes sense to me.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #18 on: March 29, 2019, 09:56:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 29, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
    We had a thread on this a few months ago, and Drew was involved with explaining the history of the 62 missal; it's quite complex.  Basically, John XXIII issued the 62 missal, ordinary form, which mainly updated the calendar and confirmed the 1955 Holy Week changes.  This first edition did NOT delete the 2nd confiteor, nor did it have the addition of St Joseph to the canon.  So, in my opinion, these changes are not part of the 62 missal.  Between the years 62-65, there were "supplemental" changes to the 62 missal, none of which mentioned Quo Primum in their laws, so this shows they are not really part of the 62 law.
    .
    In fact, if you go out to order a 62 missal on-line, there are some which have the canon intact (with no St Joseph) and they provide you with a sticker to place over the prayer, in order to add his name, because this was a "later" change, after the original 62 edition was already printed.
    .
    I think this is why +ABL kept the 2nd Confiteor and other minor things.  Because he accepted the original 62 missal but not the supplemental add-ons.  This makes sense to me.

    OK, I'll accept that.  Makes sense.  Although I believe that SSPX do include St. Joseph in the Canon.  So it still seems there's a bit of mixing going on.  So they accept one later change (St. Joseph) but reject another (removal of the 2nd Confiteor).  But I believe there's enough fog about that question to give them a pass.

    Now ... SSPV priests who do believe that Pius XII was a legitimate pope, while rejecting the 1955 Holy Week rights, that is still problematic to me.
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    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #19 on: March 29, 2019, 01:33:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on March 28, 2019, 12:16:02 PM
    I believe the FSSP and ICKSP and many indult priests are allowed to celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week, except that they must pray the Benedict XVI prayer for the Jєωs without the perfidious and they must genuflect for the Jєωs. 
    I happened to go to ICKSP for the pre-1955 Solemn Good Friday Liturgy last year. No genuflection. I'm sure it varied by location.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #20 on: March 29, 2019, 01:41:29 PM »
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    • Imagine if you will for a moment... the new Pope, Divinely elected after the Great Chastisement.



    This is a future event that Bishop Williamson has referred to in his lectures and sermons and that we trads hope for and expect.

    At the first Good Friday service of his papacy, it is for sure, that he WILL NOT genuflect to God for the conversion of the perfidious Jєωs.

    Keep that in mind as you debate the valid and invalid nuances of the changes to Good Friday's liturgy.

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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #21 on: March 29, 2019, 02:00:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: ermylaw on March 29, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
    I happened to go to ICKSP for the pre-1955 Solemn Good Friday Liturgy last year. No genuflection. I'm sure it varied by location.
    Interesting. Thank you. When I read articles about the allowance given for the pre-55 holy week it was pointed out that they were to pray the updated Benedict XVI prayer for the Jєωs with the genuflection so I figured that is what would be done. I guess in practice things vary.
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    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #22 on: March 29, 2019, 02:15:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on March 29, 2019, 02:00:29 PM
    Interesting. Thank you. When I read articles about the allowance given for the pre-55 holy week it was pointed out that they were to pray the updated Benedict XVI prayer for the Jєωs with the genuflection so I figured that is what would be done. I guess in practice things vary.
    I found it somewhat notable for a few reasons: first, the pre-printed booklets that were supplied included the genuflection; second, if I recall correctly, the priest used the BXVI prayer even though he didn't genuflect; and third, while the priest was of the Institute, the other ministers were supplied from the local diocese, including priests and seminarians. I also noticed that the priest sped along from one prayer to the next so that no one who was following the printed instruction in the booklet had a chance to genuflect. So he clearly did this quite purposefully and with forethought. I respected that. If I go there again this year, I intend to pay close attention to see which version of the prayer he uses.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #23 on: March 29, 2019, 02:20:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on March 29, 2019, 01:41:29 PM
    At the first Good Friday service of his papacy, it is for sure, that he WILL NOT genuflect to God for the conversion of the perfidious Jєωs.

    That is not sure by any means.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #24 on: March 29, 2019, 03:20:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ermylaw on March 29, 2019, 02:15:49 PM
    I found it somewhat notable for a few reasons: first, the pre-printed booklets that were supplied included the genuflection; second, if I recall correctly, the priest used the BXVI prayer even though he didn't genuflect; and third, while the priest was of the Institute, the other ministers were supplied from the local diocese, including priests and seminarians. I also noticed that the priest sped along from one prayer to the next so that no one who was following the printed instruction in the booklet had a chance to genuflect. So he clearly did this quite purposefully and with forethought. I respected that. If I go there again this year, I intend to pay close attention to see which version of the prayer he uses.

    Ok, so he had to do this to be more correct dogmatically/theolgically, but he threw liturgical decorum to the wind in order to do so. He basically had to rush and sneak in the correct words/action.

    Do you see the tradeoff here?

    A Resistance (or old-school SSPX priest) could say the prayers with proper decorum, dignity, and gravity -- making an impression on many parishioners, and gaining many graces for them. But they are "in an irregular state" and considered/appear disobedient to the Pope.

    This ICK priest is officially in good standing with Rome, so his life preaches obedience and the importance of Papal authority (which is a small upside, I'll admit) but at what costs?
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    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #25 on: March 29, 2019, 03:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on March 29, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
    Ok, so he had to do this to be more correct dogmatically/theolgically, but he threw liturgical decorum to the wind in order to do so. He basically had to rush and sneak in the correct words/action.

    Do you see the tradeoff here?

    A Resistance (or old-school SSPX priest) could say the prayers with proper decorum, dignity, and gravity -- making an impression on many parishioners, and gaining many graces for them. But they are "in an irregular state" and considered/appear disobedient to the Pope.

    This ICK priest is officially in good standing with Rome, so his life preaches obedience and the importance of Papal authority (which is a small upside, I'll admit) but at what costs?
    I agree. Ideally, this is the sort of thing that would be used to educate the people, especially given that the use of the pre-1955 rites is itself a teaching moment to illustrate the symbolism present in these rites.
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    Offline Markus

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #26 on: March 31, 2019, 09:24:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: ermylaw on March 29, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
    I happened to go to ICKSP for the pre-1955 Solemn Good Friday Liturgy last year. No genuflection. I'm sure it varied by location.
    Was it at Old St. Patrick's Oratory by any chance?
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    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #27 on: April 01, 2019, 08:11:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Markus on March 31, 2019, 09:24:30 PM
    Was it at Old St. Patrick's Oratory by any chance?
    Yes, it was!
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    Offline Markus

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    Re: Which Resistance priests still genuflect for the Jєωs on Good Friday?
    « Reply #28 on: April 09, 2019, 09:20:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: ermylaw on April 01, 2019, 08:11:36 AM
    Yes, it was!
    Great! I would expect nothing less from Canon Altiere. Good for him.  :)
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