Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: nctradcath on July 01, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
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I was thinking about the discussion of a certain priest that grew up in the SSPX and it made me think that young priests that grew up in the SSPX probably have a warped understanding of the gravity of the Novus Ordo abuses and clergy? I grew up in the Novus Ordo and went to a new Jesuit HS in the 90's in CT and saw was given the new Church experience in all its wretchedness. If I grew up in traditionalism, I don't think I would have had a clue about the Novus Ordo Church and its true evil. What does the forum think?
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I think you make a good point. If you grew up in tradition and never had any experience with the Novus Ordo, how would you know how evil and faithless it is? I could understand how one who has no experience with the Novus Ordo could underestimate the evil of the Novus Ordo and the wickedness of the modernists who control it.
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I was thinking about the discussion of a certain priest that grew up in the SSPX and it made me think that young priests that grew up in the SSPX probably have a warped understanding of the gravity of the Novus Ordo abuses and clergy? I grew up in the Novus Ordo and went to a new Jesuit HS in the 90's in CT and saw was given the new Church experience in all its wretchedness. If I grew up in traditionalism, I don't think I would have had a clue about the Novus Ordo Church and its true evil. What does the forum think?
You might be on to something.
"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
Perhaps I lived the Novus Ordo experience vicariously through my mother, who told us many times of the abuses and ugliness she left. So I guess it counted as first-hand, since I had a good imagination and was told about it so many times. But more than that, my uncle, great-uncle and others reinforced all the things wrong with the Novus Ordo, including during catechism class at my Independent chapel.
Oh, and my priest was a hard-core Trad as well. Far from giving spiritual or "airy fairy" sermons, he often criticized the communists, Freemasons, and Modernists in the Vatican. Especially Pope John Paul II, who was a fellow Pole.
I think that steady diet is what helped me.
But it was an independent chapel, not SSPX. And certainly not neo-SSPX "let's focus on the positives" like your typical Indult chapel, with constant nudges to not be so angry at Vatican II, "Come on, it's not a Superheresy." which is precisely what the neo-SSPX is uttering these days.
I think you're on to something with this topic.
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I've had this thought, too. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and having had those experiences helped me value the treasures of tradition, and fear the influences of novelty. In an admittedly imperfect attempt to convey the same to my children, I have purposely shown them YouTube videos of the Novus Ordo (no, I haven't gone looking for the most bizarre "versions", either), and used it as an instruction tool. It's not enough to know "why the true Mass". It's essential to know "why NOT the New Mass." Their childlike reactions to the videos were honest, forthright, and a clear indication that they "get it."
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I grew up before Vat II and when the N.O. came long I was repulsed by it and spent the next few years searching for the Mass I was raised with. So, it wouldn't hurt to show them why we remain with the Tridentine Mass. There is such a distinct difference that it should shock them to see it as it did me so many years ago. I'm of an older generation and the generations that followed can't remember or have never seen the N.O. Maybe they, too, need to be shown why their parents walked away after Vatican II.
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I grew up during "the Changes". My older children have a memory of the Novus Ordo but my younger children do not. I have been very concerned that they know what the Novus Ordo is all about and why they are Catholic...that is, traditional Catholic and not Novus Ordo "Catholic". I have told them that, statistically, some of them are likely to reject the faith and some time in the future; but, I've also told them, they will not be able to blame me for not teaching them the faith or why the True Faith is necessary for salvation.
Every morning we have what we have come to call "Eight O'Clock Class". It's the time for family announcements (we have family discussions at meal times). It's also the time we discuss current issues in the Church. We often discuss issues that come up here on CathInfo and what we find from other websites. The children know why the Novus Ordo is a false religion and we discuss things that happen in the Novus Ordo. We occasionally watch Youtube video that come out showing things that go on there. I note that most of those videos are not being covertly filmed and being exposed--they are usually being openly filmed and posted by proud participants.
I think that if children grow up in tradition and are ignorant of the Crisis in the Novus Ordo the parents are almost always 100% to blame in those cases the children embrace the Conciliar church.
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Fr. Pfeiffer recently gave a sermon in Phoenix where he mentioned that he recently met a THIRD generation Trad in St. Mary's who was 19 years old who did not know who +ABL was.
I had, up to that point, not told my children (who are all very young) about the Novus Ordo or VII or that there even was another Mass because the TLM is all they've ever known and I thought it would be good to preserve their innocence.
But, after hearing Fr. Pfeiffer's story I decided to explain it all to my older ones who could understand, because I don't want my kids to grow up like that. They needed to know why we do what we do.
I sort of woory about the new priests coming out of Winona because, if our "older" priests are completely neutered, then what is Winona going to be churning out??
I really don't know.
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I don't want to derail this thread but I converted to The Catholic Faith directly through an independent chapel (and yes, there are undertones of sedevacantist thinking in our chapel, but I digress....) from Protestantism. I never experienced the Novus Ordo and can only conceptualize the Catholic Faith as the TLM, the traditional Sacraments, etc.. I'm sure younger priests, who grew up in traditional chapels and also never experienced the "Novus Ordo" , whether sede or not, have no real basis in what the "Novus Ordo" is all about. What are we to make of the younger generation and the converts to the traditional Catholic Faith who never experienced the "Novus Ordo" church? What will our future be?
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"What we have lost and the road to restoration"
Is a good video to show those who may not understand the fight for Tradition. My teenaged boys, who have no knowledge of the NO said it really helped them understand. You can find it on YouTube or purchase it from "In the Spirit of Chartres Committee".
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You're absolutely on to something. I witnessed this firsthand recently. For myself I got in under the wire I think. I grew up hearing the reasons why my parents switched. I remember our NO church and the differences were active discussions in our home. And they were active discussions based on experience, not an imaginary boogeyman.
What I saw recently was several young people who were raised SSPX and have no idea what the NO and its liberal errors are like. Because they have no concrete experience, they were completely unable to detect it coming from their SSPX priest. I am not nit picky and wanting to grasp any little detail to accuse the priests of being liberal, this was a very serious subject and with several people repeating the same thing independently of each other, there was no room for error in my understanding. It was a shocking eye-opener for me, not only that there really are liberal priests in the SSPX but that cradle trads are so trusting and defenseless against them.
We move our families to SSPX parishes so they will have good influences, good schools, good friends, and some idea of what a Catholic society is like. It's so important. But, how do we not shelter them so much that they cannot spot the errors anymore? Even if they are strong in their Faith, if they are too innocent then they will fall for anything as long as it is cloaked in persuasive Catholic language. Society was Catholic at one time, right? Yet it still fell. I think we underestimate how attractively wrapped these errors are when fed to Catholics. And we underestimate the power of the slow boil. We're too quick to dismiss the little things. "He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater:"
So it seems like cradle trads really do need a little inoculation through the years. Before they leave the house and fall in head first on their own. They don't need worldly inoculation but some small exposure to the philosophies and the errors so they can recognize them when they see them, no matter where they show up, even if it's from an SSPX priest.
I see the problem but I don't know what to so about it, practically speaking. Do you bring older kids to a NO mass once in a while and have discussions afterwards? Do you listen to NO sermons together and point out error and/or ambiguity? How do you get them to see it with their own physical and metaphorical eyes without tainting them or weakening their Faith? It's definitely a difficult exercise in the virtue of hope.
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I think actually bringing them to a novus ordo would probably be a grave sin even if done for study? I am not sure how someone would handle this besides video comparison discussions?
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One does not have to be exposed to evil to know it is evil! You do not have to go watch a bank robbery and subsequent trial and punishment to know it is wrong!
We need to read Pope St. Pius X encyclical on Modernism and study it to have a basic knowledge of the evils of the modern errors. As a cradle Trad, I did not have to attend a NO to be informed of it bitter fruits! Unfortunately those who seem to have slid toward modernism, may have not had a solid upbringing in the basics as well as the history of the troubled times in which we live. ( speaking about those in our families or friends NOT about any priests) As I still have a lot to learn in this vale of tears, I beg the Blessed Virgin Mary the grace to always see the errors and act in accordance to the will of God.
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I agree. One does not have to be exposed to evil to know it's evil. But if the evil is disguised and presented as something it's not, one may easily be deceived. And deception is the devil's trademark, isn't it? The mask must be torn off, which is why it is essential for all of us to know what we're dealing with in the form of the new religion.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succuмb in every battle.”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I would never bring my children to the Novus Ordo. Youtube is quite sufficient.
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In my experience most NO catholics who knew the true Mass, but 'adapted' to the 'new' and brought their children to it, the majority of those children fall away, and have no interest in finding Tradition, if they even know its there, then their children are brought nowhere... and so it goes...
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In my experience most NO catholics who knew the true Mass, but 'adapted' to the 'new' and brought their children to it, the majority of those children fall away, and have no interest in finding Tradition, if they even know its there, then their children are brought nowhere... and so it goes...
I agree. My parents were both converts in the 1940s-1950s. They accepted "the Changes" out of obedience. They brought all of their children with them. My eldest sister was old enough to see what was going on and just quit the Church (she later returned to tradition about 40 years later). As the youngest, I never liked the Novus Ordo and, when I started really learning the faith while homeschooling my children, found tradition. The middle children have absolutely no interest in tradition and are now a mix of Protestants, Novus Ordo Catholics, and non-religious people.
I would never take a child to the Novus Ordo, but the problems of the Novus Ordo, the history of the Crisis, and the history of the "traditional revolt" (put in quotes because it was really the Novus Ordo that is revolutionary) must be a topic of ordinary discussion in the household so that the children will know why we are traditional Catholics.
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I was thinking about the discussion of a certain priest that grew up in the SSPX and it made me think that young priests that grew up in the SSPX probably have a warped understanding of the gravity of the Novus Ordo abuses and clergy? I grew up in the Novus Ordo and went to a new Jesuit HS in the 90's in CT and saw was given the new Church experience in all its wretchedness. If I grew up in traditionalism, I don't think I would have had a clue about the Novus Ordo Church and its true evil. What does the forum think?
This is exactly why so many in the Novus Ordo do not understand how Protestant their service is.........when growing up they were told never to go to a Protestant church, so they didn't. On the other hand, those who "convert" from a Protestant sect to the Novus Ordo often make the comment "This is just like what I came from!!"
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I've had this thought, too. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and having had those experiences helped me value the treasures of tradition
Amen!!!
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... Do you bring older kids to a NO mass once in a while and have discussions afterwards?......
No!!! No!!!! Never!!!
I know what you are after, but that is not the approach, believe me (we were in it for 40 years). That might backfire and get them interested, because it is so much easier, and people are naturally lazy. There are plenty of videos on YouTube, but don't take them to a NO church.
Analogy: You don't have to take your kids to a house of prostitution to explain to them that it is wrong and to be avoided at all costs.
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I was an altar boy in the TRADITIONAL MASS in the late 50's early 60's .My family went with the changes like a lot of them. There was something that continued to gnaw at me from going to the N.O.masses though. What slowly started to turn me back toward TRADITION was how disrespectful of "OUR LORD IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT ".HE was treated with almost contempt. It was like He wasn't really there. We had dancing girls in leotards go up in front of the altar and dance around inside the church. We immediately removed ourselves and our children. On the way out the door I said 'THIS IS NO LONGER A CATHOLIC CHURCH."In one N.O. Church we had a Freemason Extraordinary eucharist minister. The pastor was well aware but didn't care. I came back to TRADITION in the late 80's. I infrequently visited a Traditional Chapel. Finally in the 90's Through the Grace of "GOD " all my children came to Tradition. We moved to a Pius X Traditional Community. I've talked to young people that have grown up here. They were not taught in school why this community was set up by Archbishop Lefebre or much about the fight over Vatican II.If a lot of PIUS X er's had an inkling what awaits them if and when we put ourselves under Romes good graces. They will be hopefully shocked into reality of what has happened to the faith. Its not a pretty picture. Pray Rome comes back to its senses and Tradition before Pius x Society goes back.
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I, too, think that the OP is onto something, and that this applies not just to clergy who were raised in tradition but anyone raised in Tradition.
I think it depends a lot on how parents raise/teach their children.
This is my personal theory, and I guess the proof will be in the pudding as my children get older ... but in my view children should be taught about the Novus Ordo and exposed to in in carefully managed/supervised doses so as to "inoculate" them and give them a proper understanding/horror of it.
I have seen many Trad families where the parents felt that the best way was to completely shelter their children from everything to the point that I have met several young adults who do not even know what the Novus Ordo is. In my view, it is these ones who are totally and completely ignorant who will not have the holy hatred of that sect necessary, and who may also fall prey to the seductions of, say, the indult or even "conservative" Novus Ordoism. Anecdotally I have seen such results occur. I understand why parents do this -- they rightly want to shield their children from the filth of the modern world -- but I think that sheltering children too much is to leave them very vulnerable when they inevitably have to be exposed to these things at some point unless they go straight to a strictly cloistered monastery after high school.
It is therefore our plan to progressively give our children more information on the Novus Ordo as is appropriate to their age, as they grow. The oldest two are 9 and 8 and they already know the basics and I intend to have them study the Vatican II docuмents by the time they get to high school and prepare essays for me where they point out the errors and contrast them with the teachings of popes and Church counsels. I hope that this will give them "the next best thing" to the hatred of the Novus Ordo that converts such as my wife and myself have. When the children are all high school age we may even go on a field trip to observe a Novus Ordo service then debrief afterwards and discuss all the heresies and problems with it.
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... Do you bring older kids to a NO mass once in a while and have discussions afterwards?......
No!!! No!!!! Never!!!
I know what you are after, but that is not the approach, believe me (we were in it for 40 years). That might backfire and get them interested, because it is so much easier, and people are naturally lazy. There are plenty of videos on YouTube, but don't take them to a NO church.
Analogy: You don't have to take your kids to a house of prostitution to explain to them that it is wrong and to be avoided at all costs.
I fully understand the desire to have nothing whatsoever to do with the Novus Ordo prayer service; I was in the N.O. for over 20 years before discovering Tradition.
Maybe because I am a convert I underestimate the danger, but I just have no interest whatsoever in the nonsense of the Novus Ordo and it seems to me that older children (I'm talking 16, 17, 18) who will be ready to move out on their own and into the world soon, should be able to handle it if they've been well-instructed. I suppose it would depend on the child and the parent's judgement on a case-by-case basis as to whether there would be real danger of the child apostatizing.
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Fr. Pfeiffer recently gave a sermon in Phoenix where he mentioned that he recently met a THIRD generation Trad in St. Mary's who was 19 years old who did not know who +ABL was.
I had, up to that point, not told my children (who are all very young) about the Novus Ordo or VII or that there even was another Mass because the TLM is all they've ever known and I thought it would be good to preserve their innocence.
But, after hearing Fr. Pfeiffer's story I decided to explain it all to my older ones who could understand, because I don't want my kids to grow up like that. They needed to know why we do what we do.
I sort of woory about the new priests coming out of Winona because, if our "older" priests are completely neutered, then what is Winona going to be churning out??
I really don't know.
I explain to my children all about the Church, I want them very informed and NOT ignorant of what is goung on. Instead, may I suggest, that you preserve their innocence by teaching them modesty and keep them ignorant of things concerning commandments 6 & 9. I have a feeling you already do this.
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Integration with the mainstream will be the main concern of the Winona and the Rothschild seminaries. The ordinary and extraordinary nature of the conciliar church will be emphasised with the Society specialising in vintage interpretation and liturgical expression. The brightest professor will be one who can weld the two ancient and modern ends seamlessly and deliver up V2 as a product remarkably palatable.
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In my experience most NO catholics who knew the true Mass, but 'adapted' to the 'new' and brought their children to it, the majority of those children fall away, and have no interest in finding Tradition, if they even know its there, then their children are brought nowhere... and so it goes...
That's our experience, too, and those who "adapted" to the Novus Ordo have no interest in returning to Tradition once it is pointed out to them that Tradition can still be found, albeit with great difficulty.
Like I have mentioned before, the Novus Ordo is so much easier, and they (the Conciliar Church) still call it "Catholic", so they say we in Tradition just don't like "change".