Author Topic: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy  (Read 1932 times)

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Offline Emile

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Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2021, 06:19:23 PM »
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  • No, you'd have to have another tough, no-nonsense Trad playing bodyguard. There are plenty to choose from.
    But it's not fitting for men of God to shed blood. Not even in self-defense, not even against the "end guy", not even in a fantasy.
    I personally don't like the idea of clerics being involved in killing either, but I can think of at least two Saints who were. St John of Capistrano lead a contingent into battle against the Turks and Pope St. Pius V formed the Holy League and sent them into battle with his blessing. Neither man probably slew another with his own physical hands, but certainly men were killed under their orders.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #16 on: June 14, 2021, 06:26:34 PM »
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  • Burke would be the last one to kick off this series of events and then declare the See vacant.

    To posit that a small handful of bishops could declare a deposition seems to fly in the face of all the arguments that R&R makes against sedevacantism.  In order for their declaration to enjoy “universality,” the bishops not joining in here would have to be considered non-Catholic and deposed.  Otherwise a minority of bishops would have no authority to declare the See vacant and hold a conclave.
    Maybe I'm a bad R&R, but it is precisely because the sedevacantist bishops have pretty much decided to just run their own churches and not do anything about this problem leads me to believe that their position is not legitimate. If the papacy is necessary to Christ Church, and if it has been vacant for 62 years, it is imperative for whatever holy bishops are left to fix the situation, even by an otherwise irregular conclave.
    Thus if Sean's scenario were to come to pass, I would very likely believe that it was legitimate. I would see more evidence here that God was behind this, then I do with s e d e right now


    Offline 007

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #17 on: June 14, 2021, 06:37:54 PM »
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  • Its the bottom of the 9th two outs two strikes and we are down 10 to 0 and we have are worst player up at bat. Its going to be a great come back.  I pray I'm around to see it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #18 on: June 14, 2021, 06:48:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    Maybe I'm a bad R&R, but it is precisely because the sedevacantist bishops have pretty much decided to just run their own churches and not do anything about this problem leads me to believe that their position is not legitimate. If the papacy is necessary to Christ Church, and if it has been vacant for 62 years, it is imperative for whatever holy bishops are left to fix the situation, even by an otherwise irregular conclave.

    Certain sedes have elected their own pope, with laughable results (i.e. "pope" michael).  Most mainstream sede chapels are correctly acting with prudence and patience.  Just because you rightly say that a pope has lost his authority due to heresy does not give you the authority to replace him.  Those are 2 different things, both legally and morally.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #19 on: June 14, 2021, 07:06:14 PM »
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  • Certain sedes have elected their own pope, with laughable results (i.e. "pope" michael).  Most mainstream sede chapels are correctly acting with prudence and patience.  Just because you rightly say that a pope has lost his authority due to heresy does not give you the authority to replace him.  Those are 2 different things, both legally and morally.
    In fairness to Peter I don't remember if he specificallt chose the word "sacrilege" and I know it might technically been the wrong word.  I know from past convos we disagree on this subject,but if I had said "disrespectful" would you have had the same reaction?  


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #20 on: June 14, 2021, 07:36:09 PM »
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    but if I had said "disrespectful" would you have had the same reaction? 
    No, because wearing a facemask is not a religious or liturgical act.  So it has no bearing on the Mass, or any other aspect of religion.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #21 on: June 14, 2021, 08:31:45 PM »
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  • WHAT??! I never heard this. What's the story?

    “Adrian Fortescue was a stouty built, full-blooded man, of great physical strength and
    of true manly virtue in the classical sense. This stood him in good stead during his
    journeys to the wild and remote places that he loved so much. Once at least he fought for
    his life. On one occasion he was engaged in a hand-to-hand struggle with some fanatical
    Albanian soldiers at Hebron, and he and his companions had to fight their way with
    bludgeons to their horses and gallop away, in Adrian’s case with a broken collarbone. On a
    second occasion the caravan with which he was travelling in Asia Minor, disguised as an
    Arab, was attacked by brigands, and in self-defense he killed an assailant with a pistol
    shot. He mentioned this incident in a letter to his close friend Father Harold Burton in
    1907:

    Quote
    I have just come back from a year spent in Syria, Mesopotamia. Asia Minor & Greece.
    I saw many and wonderful things. I rode long days across the great Syrian desert, alone
    among Arabs. I stood anong the ruins of strange dead Greek cities in Asia Minor &
    slept on the bare earth under broken white columns where Diana of the Ephesians had once
    reigned as a mighty god. And I saw forests & climbed mountains and crept through deep
    passes in the heart of Asia Minor. I went a pilgriming to the holy places too, said Mass
    at the holy sepulchre, spent the night of Maundy Thursday on the Mount of Olives & saw
    the Easter sun rise above the golden walls of Herod’s temple. Then there were Damascus,
    the slow brown waters of the Euphrates, the orchards of Galilee, Cyprus (a heavenly
    island), the tawny pillars of the Athenian Acropolis, the fat plains & strange
    Byzantine monasteries of Thessaly; and- far most glorious of all – the line of domes and
    minarets, radiant, white & fretted like carved ivory against a hot grey-blue sky, that
    crown imperially Constantine’s New Rome by the Bosphorus. So you see I have had a purple
    time. I have learned to talk Syrian Arabic quite well & some Turkish. Greek I could
    talk already; & now I work at Persian like a horse, greatly hoping to go out again in
    a year or two & next time to reach Teheran & Shiraz. Also I made a heap of
    drawings and learned much about Mohammedan ideas. But I suffered a great hunger &
    thirst & heat, was under fire from robbers & Bedawin several times; once I saved
    my life by flight leaving all my baggage to the spoiler, once I shot a man dead (a horrid
    memory): I had my shoulder smashed to bits in a fight at Hebron & lay six weeks sorely
    sick in the French hospital at Jerusalem, & I nearly died of malarial fever at Aleppo.
    Such is the outline. To hear more you must come to see me, as I very much hope you will.
    Now I shall not go back to Maldon, but I am to start a new mission at Letchworth in
    Hertfordshire – where this new Garden City place is. I an very pleased with the idea
    indeed.“
    http://unavoce.org/uva-archive/adrian-fortescue-priest-and-scholar/
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #22 on: June 14, 2021, 08:46:49 PM »
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  • No, because wearing a facemask is not a religious or liturgical act.  So it has no bearing on the Mass, or any other aspect of religion.
    Yeah that's short-sighted IMO, and it can be reduced to absurdity by bringing up other examples where you would obviously agree with me. It's not an intrinsic religious act to wear a bikini for instance, but I think you would consider it more than justified to stay home if the only mass you could attend required women to wear them, (or even worse, men.). Or we could pause it something that would be more obviously a humiliation ritual, such as a priest or government mandating anyone who goes to mass wear a dog collar or something like that.
    I honestly find it a bit bewildering that so many trads are so dogmatic about everything else under the sun but they don't even have the slightest bit of care in the world for this kind of societal stuff, but then that has more to do with me than anything else and not something I'm going to further cover in public.
    Finally, I'm pretty sure I replied to pax on the wrong thread, because I was multitasking while sending response on my phone. If Matthew wants to move this conversation the threat is supposed to be in I'm certainly okay with that.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #23 on: June 14, 2021, 10:25:54 PM »
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  • Face masks aren’t immoral.  They are a sign of stupidity and communist rule but they are morally neutral things.  We are not at the point were wearing them means anything anti-catholic or sinful.  

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #24 on: June 14, 2021, 11:25:21 PM »
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  • Its the bottom of the 9th two outs two strikes and we are down 10 to 0 and we have are worst player up at bat. Its going to be a great come back.  I pray I'm around to see it.
    This is the most profound theological explanation I've ever read of our current ecclesiological situation. :laugh2:

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #25 on: June 15, 2021, 04:09:01 AM »
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  • “Adrian Fortescue was a stouty built, full-blooded man, of great physical strength and
    of true manly virtue in the classical sense. This stood him in good stead during his
    journeys to the wild and remote places that he loved so much. Once at least he fought for
    his life. On one occasion he was engaged in a hand-to-hand struggle with some fanatical
    Albanian soldiers at Hebron, and he and his companions had to fight their way with
    bludgeons to their horses and gallop away, in Adrian’s case with a broken collarbone. On a
    second occasion the caravan with which he was travelling in Asia Minor, disguised as an
    Arab, was attacked by brigands, and in self-defense he killed an assailant with a pistol
    shot. He mentioned this incident in a letter to his close friend Father Harold Burton in
    1907:
    http://unavoce.org/uva-archive/adrian-fortescue-priest-and-scholar/


    He was an amazing man. His father was an Anglican priest who converted during the Oxford Movement. He held three doctorates, he was a polyglot, an author, an expert in calligraphy, an authority in heraldry, and was knowledgeable in many different areas. His direct ancestor was the martyr Blessed Adrian Fortescue.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Explorer

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #26 on: June 16, 2021, 09:15:03 AM »
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  • It’s a sin to fantasize about violence, you’re falling into Hollywood’s trap. I suggest prayer and contemplation. I’ll be praying that you find peace. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #27 on: June 16, 2021, 09:24:25 AM »
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  • It’s a sin to fantasize about violence, you’re falling into Hollywood’s trap. I suggest prayer and contemplation. I’ll be praying that you find peace.
    Who are you addressing?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #28 on: June 16, 2021, 09:48:09 AM »
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  • Certain sedes have elected their own pope, with laughable results (i.e. "pope" michael).  Most mainstream sede chapels are correctly acting with prudence and patience.  Just because you rightly say that a pope has lost his authority due to heresy does not give you the authority to replace him.  Those are 2 different things, both legally and morally.
    I think for six laypeople to gather in a basement and elect a "pope" is laughable.  I think what should happen is, if there really has been no pope since Pius XII, for the sedevacantist bishops and priests to gather together and elect a pope.  I don't think it would be "laughable" if all the sede clergy united together and elected a singular candidate for pope.  I think that would have to be taken seriously.

    That they haven't done so, even for 60+ years, tells me that it is very probable that Francis is in fact a pope, merely a bad one, and that we're stuck with it, and that is ultimately why nobody else can be elected to St Peter's Chair, because Francis is sitting in it.

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Pope Vigano: My Fantasy
    « Reply #29 on: June 16, 2021, 09:54:26 AM »
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  • Cardinal Burke might threaten to send a new, longer dubia which would so panic Francis, he'd quit the Vatican. :jester:


     

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