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Author Topic: Pope to end Latin Mass???  (Read 3632 times)

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Offline Miseremini

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Pope to end Latin Mass???
« on: July 26, 2017, 07:36:51 PM »
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    • John-Henry Westen

    NEWSCATHOLIC CHURCHWed Jul 26, 2017 - 11:38 am EST
    Vatican rumblings: Pope Francis aiming to end Latin Mass permission
     Catholic , Latin Mass , Pope Francis , Traditional Latin Mass
    ROME, July 26, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – Sources inside the Vatican suggest that Pope Francis aims to end Pope Benedict XVI’s universal permission for priests to say the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), also known as the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. While the course of action would be in tune with Pope Francis’ repeatedly expressed disdain for the TLM especially among young people, there has been no open discussion of it to date.
    Sources in Rome told LifeSite last week that liberal prelates inside the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were overheard discussing a plan ascribed to the Pope to do away with Pope Benedict’s famous docuмent that gave priests freedom to offer the ancient rite of the Mass.
    Catholic traditionalists have just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the docuмent,Summorum Pontificuм. Pope Benedict XVI issued it in 2007, giving all Latin Rite priests permission to offer the TLM without seeking permission of their bishops, undoing a restriction placed on priests after the Second Vatican Council.
    The motu proprio outraged liberal bishops as it stripped them of the power to forbid the TLM, as many did. Previously priests needed their bishop’s permission to offer the TLM.
    Additionally, Summorum Pontificuм stated that wherever a group of the faithful request the TLM, the parish priests should willingly agree to their request.
    The overheard plans are nearly identical to comments from an important Italian liturgist in an interview published by France’s La Croix earlier this month. Andrea Grillo a lay professor at the Pontifical Athenaeum of St Anselmo in Rome, billed by La Croix as “close to the Pope,” is intimately familiar Summorum Pontificuм. Grillo in fact published a book against Summorum Pontificuм before the papal docuмent was even released.
    Grillo told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Summorum Pontificuм. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive.”
    The plan, as related to LifeSite, involved making an agreement with the Society of St. Pius X and, with that agreement in place, sequestering those Catholics wanting the TLM to the SSPX. For most, that would strip them of access to the TLM since there would not be nearly enough SSPX priests to service Catholics wanting the TLM worldwide.
    Moreover, LifeSite’s source suggested that the plan may explain a May 20, 2017 letter by the recently ousted Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Cardinal Gerhard Müller. Even though Cardinal Müller wanted the SSPX fully reconciled to help fight modernists in the Church, the May 20 letter seemed to scuttle an agreement between Pope Francis and the SSPX which would see them get a personal prelature. The letter includes provisions long known to be completely unacceptable to the SSPX, thus nullifying an understanding SSPX leader Bishop Bernard Fellay believed was imminent.
    The LifeSite source suggested that the May 20 letter by Muller perhaps was written because he knows what Francis was up to and wanted to avoid the plan to bury Summorum Pontificuм with Pope Benedict. “It’s directed not so much against Fellay but against the agreement,” said the source. “Pope Francis was very angry that docuмent came out from Cardinal Muller and some say that’s why he made the decision to dismiss him.”
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 08:16:37 PM »
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    • WoW, good thing he's not really a real pope.   Therefore we can just ignore him, as usual.   
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 08:28:20 PM »
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    • What has been given can be taken away.  
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 11:37:08 PM »
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    • PThe Pope seems like he is trying to end the Catholic faith. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 01:17:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on July 26, 2017, 08:28:20 PM
    What has been given can be taken away.  
    .
    While it might well seem this is a case of taking away what was given (aka Indian giver), a more abiding problem for Francis would be what he plans to do about Quo Primum, which arguably no Pope can EVER "take away." I have met several traditional priests who have assured me it is infallible.
    .
    Summorum Pontificuм makes no pretense of infallibility. Therefore, it might have about as long to live as its author does.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 01:23:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on July 26, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
    The Pope seems like he is trying to end the Catholic faith.
    .
    Your post reminds me that if Francis really keeps going in this course bearing he's headed directly for a worldwide schism.
    Because he is doing little or nothing for the unity of Catholics when he is militantly anti-traditional like this.
    The first duty of the Pope is to safeguard tradition. In that, Francis gets failing marks!!
    .
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    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 01:37:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on July 26, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
    PThe Pope seems like he is trying to end the Catholic faith.
    That is how we will end up with the one-world religion.  Catholicism, as the world perceives it, must be destroyed.  We are fortunate that there are a few loyal, true Catholics still around to pass on the true faith.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 02:08:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marlelar on July 27, 2017, 01:37:03 AM
    That is how we will end up with the one-world religion.  Catholicism, as the world perceives it, must be destroyed.  We are fortunate that there are a few loyal, true Catholics still around to pass on the true faith.
    The only one-world religion is the Catholic Faith.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 02:09:15 AM »
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    • You know, it is possible that Pope Emeritus Benedict could outlive Pope Francis. 
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 07:27:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on July 27, 2017, 01:17:53 AM
    .
    While it might well seem this is a case of taking away what was given (aka Indian giver), a more abiding problem for Francis would be what he plans to do about Quo Primum, which arguably no Pope can EVER "take away." I have met several traditional priests who have assured me it is infallible.
    .
    Summorum Pontificuм makes no pretense of infallibility. Therefore, it might have about as long to live as its author does.
    .

    The purpose of Summorum Pontificuм was the "reform of the reform". That is, the merging of the two missals. Once that is done, there is no use for it because there won't be an "E.F". The hybrid missal will be the one Ratzinger had in mind. Summorum Pontificuм and the 1962 missal will have to be abrogated.

    The 1962 missal has been treated as an indult by all post VII popes precisely because was only a "transitional" missal. When Msgr. Bugnini was asked in 1962 if that was the "extent of the reform", he replied: "Not by any stretch of the imagination...." The 1962 missal was only in effect for 2 1/2 years, it's not the Immemorial Rite. Rome understands this well and that is why all indult communities are using it. Even ABL agreed to keep it for the SSPX.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 08:04:42 AM »
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    • I hope Bishop Fellay and everyone who said "It is not a trap" and "they have other ways to trap us and this is not it", and "You can't imagine anything better" (See Bishop Fellay's Aug. 24, 2016 New Zealand speech)..reads this below and finally realize it was a trap!

    "The plan, as related to LifeSite, involved making an agreement with the Society of St. Pius X and, with that agreement in place, sequestering those Catholics wanting the TLM to the SSPX. For most, that would strip them of access to the TLM since there would not be nearly enough SSPX priests to service Catholics wanting the TLM worldwide."
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 08:41:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on July 26, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
    PThe Pope seems like he is trying to end the Catholic faith.
    The "General Apostasy" from the top, predicted by Our Lady. We have been warned. Our only hope is in God and His Most Holy Mother's promise.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 08:44:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on July 27, 2017, 01:17:53 AM
    While it might well seem this is a case of taking away what was given (aka Indian giver), a more abiding problem for Francis would be what he plans to do about Quo Primum, which arguably no Pope can EVER "take away." I have met several traditional priests who have assured me it is infallible.
    .
    Summorum Pontificuм makes no pretense of infallibility. Therefore, it might have about as long to live as its author does.
    The traditional Mass was taken away upon the promulgation of the Novus Ordo.  It survived only because there were priests who simply refused to accept the authority of their pope or bishops and relied on the perpetual nature and infallibility of Quo Primum.  The Mass was "given" back to those dissidents in law by Pope Wojtyla by way of an indult in order to secure a sort of peace.
    Summorum Pontificuм merely expanded that indult; but it is an indult nonetheless.

    Should Pope Bergoglio decide to remove that indult or otherwise restrict the traditional Mass, then it is solely within his prerogative and the only people who will celebrate or assist at that Mass outside approved venues will be dissidents.


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    Quote from: Mr G on Thu Jul 27 2017 09:04:42 GMT-0400 (US Eastern Daylight Time)

    I hope Bishop Fellay and everyone who said "It is not a trap" and "they have other ways to trap us and this is not it", and "You can't imagine anything better" (See Bishop Fellay's Aug. 24, 2016 New Zealand speech)..reads this below and finally realize it was a trap!

    "The plan, as related to LifeSite, involved making an agreement with the Society of St. Pius X and, with that agreement in place, sequestering those Catholics wanting the TLM to the SSPX. For most, that would strip them of access to the TLM since there would not be nearly enough SSPX priests to service Catholics wanting the TLM worldwide."
    Based on everything I've heard or read Bishop Fellay say, I'm not so sure he would care if it were a "trap".  This could potentially lead to an even greater expansion of the SSPX.  I think he would be quite happy to have the FSSP and other "traditional" Conciliar groups rolled up under his authority.
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 09:01:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on July 27, 2017, 08:44:07 AM
    The traditional Mass was taken away upon the promulgation of the Novus Ordo.  It survived only because there were priests who simply refused to accept the authority of their pope or bishops and relied on the perpetual nature and infallibility of Quo Primum.  The Mass was "given" back to those dissidents in law by Pope Wojtyla by way of an indult in order to secure a sort of peace.
    Summorum Pontificuм merely expanded that indult; but it is an indult nonetheless.

    Should Pope Bergoglio decide to remove that indult or otherwise restrict the traditional Mass, then it is solely within his prerogative and the only people who will celebrate or assist at that Mass outside approved venues will be dissidents.

    Based on everything I've heard or read Bishop Fellay say, I'm not so sure he would care if it were a "trap".  This could potentially lead to an even greater expansion of the SSPX. [The mystery of the super-sized new seminary is solved] I think he would be quite happy to have the FSSP and other "traditional" Conciliar groups rolled up under his authority.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope to end Latin Mass???
    « Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 09:04:55 AM »
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    • Paul VI's constitution created a new missal but it did NOT authorize, permit or command any priest to use it, and by extension, for anyone to attend it.  This is because to use this new missal is a violation of Quo Primum, which is still a valid law and which supersedes Paul VI's law.  Paul VI could have, in theory, changed or revoked Quo Primum but he did not.  So Quo Primum is still in effect and it allows any priest to say the tridentine rite, forever.  More importantly, it COMMANDS, under pain of sin, ALL priests and faithful to ONLY use the tridentine missal.  Many people forget that this law is both a permission and a COMMAND.

    The point is, many people say that Quo Primum is infallible.  I'm not sure that is accurate, since it is a law and legal matters aren't usually infallible, because that has to do with doctrine.  But either way, Quo Primum is still a valid law and since it's permissions and penalties are still in force, then anyone who says or attends the novus ordo is commiting a grave sin of disobedience against the law of the Church.
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