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Author Topic: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes  (Read 1689 times)

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Offline Cato

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Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
« on: September 08, 2021, 01:27:21 AM »
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    • I’m curious what the counter arguments are regarding this decree.  Is this decree considered to be just a personal statement and not binding to Catholics?

    I don’t mean to get folks fired up;  I’m just curious how those who believe that that heretics can retain their office deal with Pope Paul IV’s decree.
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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #1 on: September 08, 2021, 02:24:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cato on September 08, 2021, 01:27:21 AM
    I’m curious what the counter arguments are regarding this decree.  Is this decree considered to be just a personal statement and not binding to Catholics?

    I don’t mean to get folks fired up;  I’m just curious how those who believe that that heretics can retain their office deal with Pope Paul IV’s decree.
    Link a source please.
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    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #2 on: September 08, 2021, 02:39:55 AM »
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    • Thanks for bringing up this long dormant topic-- despite your misconception of it. The whole point of cuм Apostolic Ex is that if a legally elected Pope(unlike the simoniacal Boniface ) were to express a Public heresy he would immediatly be Deposed by Acclimation.

    And BTW-- the docuмent is an Infallible Bull -- I am not sure what you mean by decree.  There is NO SUCH THING as an Heretical Il Papa  :sleep:
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #3 on: September 08, 2021, 04:53:20 AM »
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    • Pope St. Pius X's Vacante Sede Apostolica abrogated cuм ex = it's not infallible.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #4 on: September 08, 2021, 05:54:23 AM »
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    • Not so fast.  There are doctrinal aspects to cuм ex ... namely that it undercuts the argument from "Universal Acceptance" ... clearly indicating that a heretical pope is not a pope DESPITE the fact that he's accepted by all.

    And the argument regarding heretical popes is from divine law.  These papal decrees can have the effect of lifting ecclesiastical penalties for the crime of heresy, but they cannot make someone who's outside the Church on account of heresy be inside the Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #5 on: September 08, 2021, 07:30:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 08, 2021, 05:54:23 AM
    And the argument regarding heretical popes is from divine law. 
    Which Divine Law?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2021, 08:14:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 08, 2021, 07:30:07 AM
    Which Divine Law?

    If the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine is correct, the divine law that someone who is not a member of the Church cannot be its head.  If that's the case, no papal decree can make someone in the Church.  No pope could decree, for instance, that some Buddhist is inside the Church.  In any case, I grant that there are alternative opinions out there, but the point is that there are two aspects to cuм ex, one the legal aspect and then some at-least-implied doctrinal aspects.  This is the strongest argument against the "Universal Acceptance" hypothesis, since "Universal Acceptance" would have rendered cuм ex entirely moot, but Pope Paul IV states that universal acceptance doesn't convalidate an illegitimate election.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2021, 08:28:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 08, 2021, 08:14:16 AM
    If the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine is correct, the divine law that someone who is not a member of the Church cannot be its head. 
    But what is the actual Divine Law? Divine Law is a Law decreed directly from God, like the Ten Commandments. I presume the divine law of St. Robert was revealed in the New Testament but I don't know.

    Fr. Cekada was always big on this but far as I could find, he never stated which Divine Law either.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2021, 08:31:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 08, 2021, 08:28:03 AM
    But what is the actual Divine Law? Divine Law is a Law decreed directly from God, like the Ten Commandments. I presume the divine law of St. Robert was revealed in the New Testament but I don't know.

    Fr. Cekada was always big on this but far as I could find, he never stated which Divine Law either.

    Again, the divine law that you can't be the head of the Church if you are not a member ... which St. Robert Bellarmine concluded from the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers.  As I said, there are some who disagree, but it's very clear that you at least need to be baptized to be a member of the Church.  Everyone agrees that it's divine law, for instance, that a non-baptized infidel cannot legitimately be elected pope.  Some claim (as you do) that heretics can be members of the Church by virtue of their Baptism, but that was an opinion found to be held by only one theologian ... and has been discarded by all theologians and never gained acceptance.  Msgr. Fenton wrote a long article explaining the history of this.  I used to reject your opinion (also that of Father Wathen) that the only requirement is Baptism in stating that this was not any opinion held by any theologians ever.  But on reading the article from Msgr. Fenton, I found that there was one theologian who held that.

    Really the issue is when does someone become a heretic.  But there's near universal consensus that once someone is a heretic (depending on which criteria you accept), then a heretic is not a member of the Church and therefore cannot be its head.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #9 on: September 08, 2021, 08:41:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 08, 2021, 07:30:07 AM
    Which Divine Law?

    Here a recent answer to your question:

    Quote from: Marion on July 20, 2021, 12:11:23 PM
    Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM
    Quote from: Marion on July 20, 2021, 08:43:53 AM
    Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 05:55:06 AM
    So which divine law prevents a heretic from becoming pope?
    Divine law is either ius divinum positivum or ius divinum naturale, depending on whether it is revealed or known by reason itself based on the nature of things.
    I mean *which* divine law? What is needed is, say for example, against the 1st or 2nd or ? commandment, or reference the pertinent divine revelation from Scripture, this is what is necessary.  To say anything is against Divine Law necessarily must at least be able to reference the specific Divine Law itself.

    As I explained above: The divine law, which prevents a heretic from becoming pope, is not ius divinum positivum, so it is not revealed. Rather, it is ius divinum naturale, which means that it is known by reason itself based on the nature of things.

    To reference the specific divine law itself, I have quoted and commented on Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XII, and St. Robert Bellarmine. Here again the specific divine law (known by reason itself):

    By their nature, heresy, schism, and apostasy sever a man from the body of the Church.
    A man severed from the body of the Church is outside.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
    The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, because he cannot be head of what he is not a member.

    St. Robert furthermore refers to St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others, who explain why a manifest heretic is not a Christian, not a member of the body of Church.


    The specific divine law, preventing a heretic from becoming or from remaining Pope, is given by reason itself based on the nature of things as detailed by Popes, Fathers, and summarized by St. Robert Bellarmine.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #10 on: September 08, 2021, 10:07:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on September 08, 2021, 08:41:42 AM
    Here a recent answer to your question:
    Divine law is either ius divinum positivum or ius divinum naturale, depending on whether it is revealed or known by reason itself based on the nature of things.
    I mean *which* divine law? What is needed is, say for example, against the 1st or 2nd or ? commandment, or reference the pertinent divine revelation from Scripture, this is what is necessary.  To say anything is against Divine Law necessarily must at least be able to reference the specific Divine Law itself.


    As I explained above: The divine law, which prevents a heretic from becoming pope, is not ius divinum positivum, so it is not revealed. 1) Rather, it is ius divinum naturale, which means that it is known by reason itself based on the nature of things.

    To reference the specific divine law itself, I have quoted and commented on Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XII, and St. Robert Bellarmine. Here again the specific divine law (known by reason itself):

    2) By their nature, heresy, schism, and apostasy sever a man from the body of the Church.
    A man severed from the body of the Church is outside.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
    The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, because he cannot be head of what he is not a member.

    St. Robert furthermore refers to St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others, who explain why a manifest heretic is not a Christian, not a member of the body of Church.


    The specific divine law, preventing a heretic from becoming or from remaining Pope, is given by reason itself based on the nature of things as  3) detailed by Popes, Fathers, and summarized by St. Robert Bellarmine.
    1) If anything is known by reason itself based on the nature of things, then it is open to interpretation, Divine Law is not open to interpretation.

    2) All mortal sin, by their nature (although in varying degrees) server a man from the body of the Church. In order to repair or erase the sever, all that is needed is for sinners, including apostates, heretics and schismatics, is to make a good confession - this privilege is enjoyed only by those already members of the Church. 

    3) This is what I am asking. If it is a divine law, then please quote popes, or a pope saying it is a divine law. Even cuм Ex does not make that claim.   

     
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #11 on: September 08, 2021, 10:12:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 08, 2021, 08:31:22 AM
    Again, the divine law that you can't be the head of the Church if you are not a member ... which St. Robert Bellarmine concluded from the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers.  As I said, there are some who disagree, but it's very clear that you at least need to be baptized to be a member of the Church.  Everyone agrees that it's divine law, for instance, that a non-baptized infidel cannot legitimately be elected pope.  Some claim (as you do) that heretics can be members of the Church by virtue of their Baptism, but that was an opinion found to be held by only one theologian ... and has been discarded by all theologians and never gained acceptance.  Msgr. Fenton wrote a long article explaining the history of this.  I used to reject your opinion (also that of Father Wathen) that the only requirement is Baptism in stating that this was not any opinion held by any theologians ever.  But on reading the article from Msgr. Fenton, I found that there was one theologian who held that.

    Really the issue is when does someone become a heretic.  But there's near universal consensus that once someone is a heretic (depending on which criteria you accept), then a heretic is not a member of the Church and therefore cannot be its head.

    Heresy is a sin, a mortal sin, which is forgiven if the heretic decides to amend his life, make a good confession, etc., this privilege is enjoyed only by those already members of the Church, so I would like a snip if possible of whatever Fr. Fenton said in his long article about how a heretic, as one who is supposedly not even a member of the Church, can be absolved in confession.
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #12 on: September 08, 2021, 11:27:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 08, 2021, 10:07:25 AM
    1) If anything is known by reason itself based on the nature of things, then it is open to interpretation, Divine Law is not open to interpretation.

    2) All mortal sin, by their nature (although in varying degrees) server a man from the body of the Church. In order to repair or erase the sever, all that is needed is for sinners, including apostates, heretics and schismatics, is to make a good confession - this privilege is enjoyed only by those already members of the Church.  

    3) This is what I am asking. If it is a divine law, then please quote popes, or a pope saying it is a divine law. Even cuм Ex does not make that claim.    


    I quoted two Popes and a Doctor of the Church. It's east to find. I won't quote them again.

    You ask your questions again and again, and don't even bother to take note of what people answer. Rather you start all over with your questions. You're not worth of any more answer.
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    Offline Xenophon

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #13 on: September 08, 2021, 12:05:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cato on September 08, 2021, 01:27:21 AM
    I’m curious what the counter arguments are regarding this decree.  Is this decree considered to be just a personal statement and not binding to Catholics?

    I don’t mean to get folks fired up;  I’m just curious how those who believe that that heretics can retain their office deal with Pope Paul IV’s decree.
    In Chapter CII of Book II of the Summa, Juan de Torquemada, then a cardinal, detailed "How through heresy publicly preached and contumaciously defended, the pope falls from the papacy."

    Juan immediately showed the uniqueness of heresy by citing the key Scriptural texts. He then argued that a heretical pope falls because

    1) he cannot be the head, since he is cut off from the body of Christ ;
    2) the Church is built upon Peter's faith in Christ, and anyone who falls from the faith falls from the Church;
    3) a schismatic loses jurisdictional power (from St. Thomas); 4) according to St. Thomas, a pope in heresy is less (minor) than all other Christians ; and,
    5) a heretic loses all authority. Prierias used proposition number four, and both he and Benetus used number one with the argument of Antoninus to reach the conclusion of the Summa.

    Juan de Torquemada, Summa de Ecclesia, II

    You cannot in any way reconcile a heretic being the pope in any way, even if you were to try and say "modern developments show heretics are treated differently" we have Popes like Leo XIII teaching that heresy of course means you're outside the Church and therefore not Christian.

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    Offline Xenophon

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #14 on: September 08, 2021, 12:10:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 08, 2021, 08:28:03 AM
    But what is the actual Divine Law? Divine Law is a Law decreed directly from God, like the Ten Commandments. I presume the divine law of St. Robert was revealed in the New Testament but I don't know.

    Fr. Cekada was always big on this but far as I could find, he never stated which Divine Law either.
    (Matt. 12,30; cf. Luke 11,23). Moreover, Peter's commission was to feed (John 21,15-17), not to kill. These are some of the many key scriptures many Medieval Hierarchists/anti conciliarists cited. This would be the divine law.  
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    “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6
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