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Author Topic: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II  (Read 4260 times)

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Offline Bilbo

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Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
« on: September 03, 2017, 10:41:02 PM »
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    • I'm surprised that no one picked up on what happened here and how it affects the pro SSPX view on R&R.

    The SSPX has often backed their R&R stance on the situation with the pope being a heretic with the explanation that since V2 was only a pastoral council and not binding by the church, the concilliar popes have never crossed the line into flat out heresy.

    With the latest from pope francis invoking magisterial authority that V2 is irreversible, this now flies in the face of what the SSPX has been preaching.

    By pope francis invoking magisterial authority on this subject, he is saying that V2 and all of its errors is now the infallible teaching of the catholic church. The SSPX can no longer say that the V2 changes were just pastoral and brings to light a much more evident contradiction of what all previous popes have taught.

    Here is the article:

    https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/24/pope-francis-says-magisterial-authority-vatican-ii-liturgical-reform-irreversible
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 11:00:21 PM »
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    Offline Bilbo

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 11:26:48 PM »
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    • what is that supposed to mean?
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 11:40:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bilbo on September 03, 2017, 11:26:48 PM
    what is that supposed to mean?
    That it is, was, and almost certainly will be how they "deal" with sticky wickets as in the OP, inclusive of baloney like "V2 was only a pastoral council and not binding by the church, the concilliar popes have never crossed the line into flat out heresy." namely by dancin' around, shucking and jiving, and maybe tugging on those collars off and on.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 06:21:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bilbo on September 03, 2017, 10:41:02 PM
    I'm surprised that no one picked up on what happened here and how it affects the pro SSPX view on R&R.

    The SSPX has often backed their R&R stance on the situation with the pope being a heretic with the explanation that since V2 was only a pastoral council and not binding by the church, the concilliar popes have never crossed the line into flat out heresy.

    With the latest from pope francis invoking magisterial authority that V2 is irreversible, this now flies in the face of what the SSPX has been preaching.

    By pope francis invoking magisterial authority on this subject, he is saying that V2 and all of its errors is now the infallible teaching of the catholic church. The SSPX can no longer say that the V2 changes were just pastoral and brings to light a much more evident contradiction of what all previous popes have taught.

    Here is the article:

    https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/24/pope-francis-says-magisterial-authority-vatican-ii-liturgical-reform-irreversible
    To call V2 a "Pastoral Council", which it was, is to say it was not a "Dogmatic Council", which is to say there were no new dogmas defined.

    Claiming his "magisterial authority" to say "the liturgical reform is irreversible" is entirely meaningless. First off, there are 1000s of different "reformed liturgies" going on because it all depends on which priest is saying the "mass". They all have dozens of different versions. Which one(s) is irreversible?

    Irreversible? What does that even mean in this context? If it means anything at all, and who knows if it does or not, but reading between the lines, it is clearly Modernist speak for "no more Tridentine Mass". But that is something he cannot, with his magisterial authority, come out and say.

    More Modernist speak - saying something without meaning.
       
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    Offline wallflower

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 08:04:17 AM »
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    • Quote
    More Modernist speak - saying something without meaning.

    This was a startling headline for us because if they tried to do anything ex cathedra we would be forced to reconsider sedevacantism, but when we looked into it a bit more we came to this conclusion too, that it was a bunch of words. Still, I wish someone much more knowledgeable would break it down for us. If it's already been discussed here or elsewhere please be so kind as to link it for me. My internet time is much more limited than it was in the past so I miss 99% of the posts. This topic is too important to miss though.
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    Offline Bilbo

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 09:40:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: wallflower on September 04, 2017, 08:04:17 AM
    This was a startling headline for us because if they tried to do anything ex cathedra we would be forced to reconsider sedevacantism
    Yes Wallflower.. that is my point exactly...
    The sedes have always argued that any error being taught by modernist Rome is part of the extraordinary magisterium of the church and therefore creates such a contradiction that logically speaking, it is impossible for the pope (at that time) to be a true pope.
    But now, we have a pope in the chair of Peter officially declaring errors to be part of the magisterium which means they would officially become infallible teaching, there is no more any guess work involved.
    This is a huge event in history of the catholic church. No concilliar pope has ever come out and declared an error as infallible as is currently the case.
    In light of this, the sedevacantist position is now the only logical one to follow.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 10:02:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 04, 2017, 06:21:45 AM
    To call V2 a "Pastoral Council", which it was, is to say it was not a "Dogmatic Council", which is to say there were no new dogmas defined.

    Claiming his "magisterial authority" to say "the liturgical reform is irreversible" is entirely meaningless. First off, there are 1000s of different "reformed liturgies" going on because it all depends on which priest is saying the "mass". They all have dozens of different versions. Which one(s) is irreversible?

    Irreversible? What does that even mean in this context? If it means anything at all, and who knows if it does or not, but reading between the lines, it is clearly Modernist speak for "no more Tridentine Mass". But that is something he cannot, with his magisterial authority, come out and say.

    More Modernist speak - saying something without meaning.
      
    Explain now; where are the marks of the Church, the marks that are to show us where the Truth is?
    Remember learning back in the days when it was taught in Catholic schools; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
    How can you INSIST a True Pope can be Vicar of Christ both in Truth and error?
    As DZ PLEASE above says, DANCE AROUND THAT ONE.   
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 11:10:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on September 04, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
    Explain now; where are the marks of the Church, the marks that are to show us where the Truth is?
    Remember learning back in the days when it was taught in Catholic schools; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
    How can you INSIST a True Pope can be Vicar of Christ both in Truth and error?
    As DZ PLEASE above says, DANCE AROUND THAT ONE.  
    The marks of the Church remain, the Church has not been destroyed.

    The pope is a Modernist - he said what Modernists are expected to say -i.e. nothing but sounds like something to the unknowing. He can say whatever he wants to say - we know the new liturgy is not reversable, nor is it forwardable. It is evil and needs to be abolished, not reversed, as if such a thing was even doable.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 12:45:50 PM »
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    • It is absurd to claim that this comment of Pope Francis is invoking the infallible Magisterium of the Church.  That should be self evident to every traditional Catholic who knows the Dogma regarding Infallibility from Vatican I.  The following comment was in our bulletin last week in response to the article on this subject published by The Vatican Insider.


    http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/Bulletin-Announcements/weekly_bulletin.htm

    Whether in the Ordinary or Extra-ordinary flavor: The “Assembly… Celebrates.”

    Quote
    General Instruction on the Novus Ordo Mass
    The Lord’s supper or Mass is the sacred assembly or congregation of the people of God gathering together, with a priest presiding, in order to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.  For this reason, Christ’s promise applies supremely to such a local gathering of the Church: “Where two or three come together in my name, there am I in their midst.”Article 7(1969)

     “Almost any believing Protestant of whatever denomination would be able to assent to such a definition.” Msgr. Klaus Gamber
     
    The “full reception (of the Novus Ordo) has not yet been completed” in that traditional Catholics have not accepted it which is the sign of the Church’s Indefectibility. It has been nearly fifty years and to speak as if it is simply a question of not knowing or understanding the “liturgical richness” of the Novus Ordo is a claim that makes you wonder about the mental status of the claimant. We know much more about the liturgical reform of the Philistine Bugnini (and alleged Freemason) and his confederates than at any time since the Vatican Council II. The more we know, the uglier the reform becomes in both its theoretical intent and its practical implementation.
     
    “With magisterial authority” Pope Francis calls the Novus Ordo “irreversible” while at the same time he insults those who consider the immemorial Roman Rite, the “mass of all time,….  irreversible.” He argues that we “need to rediscover the reasons behind the decision made with the liturgical reform.” What a liturgical dummy! There has been tremendous liturgical research going into detail exactly how those who hated the immemorial Roman rite reasoned and what they intended. In its best light, it is an incredibly mindless remark unless the problem is refined malice which would explain everything?
     
    It is a Dogma of Faith, a formal object of divine and Catholic faith, that “no pastor in the churches whomsoever has the authority change the received and approved rites customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments into other new rites.” That includes Pope Francis although some may argue that he is not a “pastor.” Therefore, by the term, “magisterial authority,” Pope Francis is referring to his human authority he possesses by his grace of state and not to the infallible authority of the Church’s Magisterium. For the Church’s Magisterium has already spoken on this question and cannot be gainsaid. It is not the first time Pope Francis has denied divinely revealed truth. Just as he claims to hold the same doctrinal understanding of Justification as Luther, he undoubtedly believes that Luther was right regarding his understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As said before, we known far better now than our fathers who recoiled from and rejected the Novus Ordo based primarily upon their Catholic sensus fidei grouned upon the virtue of true religion and the gift of piety. We now add to this the Dogmas of our Faith supported with extensive historical docuмentation, and most importantly, the evil fruit that the evil tree has produced since its unnatural birth. 
     
    The treatment of the 1962 Bugnini reform missal as an Indult or grant of legal privilege was an indirect yet definite statement that it is not the immemorial Roman rite for no immemorial tradition can be so ignominiously relegated. It is disingenuous to complain that Catholics faithful to tradition, “bluntly disobeyed Benedict’s instructions, and instead of using the 1962 missal, reprinted and used the one in place before 1954, thus omitting Pius XII’s reforms.”  No one “disobeyed” Benedict because no one argued that Benedict could not do whatever he wanted to to the 1962 Bugnini transitional Novus Ordo missal which is not the immemorial Roman rite. What man has created, man can dispose as he pleases.  The 1962 Missal occurred at the mid-point of the liturgical revolution and was as much a man-made product as its 1969 version from which both share a common provenance.  Those who reject the Bugnini missal in any of its forms are free as faithful Catholics to use the immemorial Roman rite which Benedict did not possess the authority to restrict because it is a necessary attribute of the Faith to which every baptized Catholic possesses by right.
     
    The Bugnini/Montini reform was defined officially as a “memorial meal” because that is what it is. When conservative Catholics complained about the definition, it was changed but the thing itself defined remained the same. It is a memorial meal. Vatican II, a “pastoral council,” has been a pastoral failure by any objective standard of measurement. Pope Francis proclaims that “time is greater than space” meaning that we should look at, or rather over-look, the immediate disasters as temporary adjustments from which the blossoms of spiritual renewal will someday bloom throughout the Church. This is like the perpetual promises of the Communists and their “five year plans” that just never worked as predicted. The failures were always blamed at those who did not sufficiently embrace the theories or apply them with enough rigor. It is therefore impossible to argue cold facts with the likes of Pope Francis. For the liberal, the theory is normative, it is the facts that keep going askew.        
     
    The liturgical innovations were implemented by the salami technique, slice by slice, foisting the reforms with a false appeal to authority always defended by an army of lies. Children raised in the traditional Roman rite and exposed to the Novus Ordo in all its “majesty” recoil in horror as if being embracing a corpse.  Having been fairly warned they will not likely be fooled by the re-education agenda that Pope Francis hopes to impose.  Anyway, just who is going to “re-educate” them. 
     
    Lastly, a  “memorial meal” is (or can be) “inclusive.”  The Mass is, and necessarily so, exclusive. It excludes those who have not been baptized, those who do not profess the true faith, those who guilty of heresy, schism or apostasy. It excludes from sacramental reception all those in mortal sin, such as those living in adultery and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. The claim that the “liturgy is primarily to express the piety of the whole people of God” is not true. The liturgy is primarily the sacrificial worship of God (through the priest as an alter Christus) by God established by God that the faithful are called upon to offer themselves in union with the divine Victim for the forgiveness of sins, trespasses and omissions for themselves and all the faithful, both living and dead. The primary end of the Mass is the glory of God. All this has nothing in common with the man-made Protestant memorial meal of Pope Francis. There is a “separation between priest and people” and the separation is made by God who calls the man to the priestly vocation and sacramentally seals him with an indelible character. All this non-sense of Pope Francis is being dictated to the faithful from the supreme “neo-clericalist” who cannot stand to see God worshiped according to the “received and approved rites” of the Catholic Church. The Novus Ordites are just a new version of Iconoclasts. They wish to destroy the images by which our Faith is known and communicated to others.



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    Offline OHCA

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 12:48:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: wallflower on September 04, 2017, 08:04:17 AM
    This was a startling headline for us because if they tried to do anything ex cathedra we would be forced to reconsider sedevacantism. . .
    The fact that Bergoglio's "ordination" and "episcopal consecration" are in the post-1968 bastardized rites didn't do that for you?
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 04:32:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bilbo on September 04, 2017, 09:40:29 AM
    Yes Wallflower.. that is my point exactly...
    The sedes have always argued that any error being taught by modernist Rome is part of the extraordinary magisterium

      Rrrrrrreaallly? Please, "enlighten" us, including on  "Error being taught by the extraordinary magisterium of the Church." Here, I'll help you. The "extraordinary" as opposed to..."?

    of the church and therefore creates such a contradiction that logically speaking, it is impossible for the pope (at that time) to be a true pope.
    But now, we have a pope in the chair of Peter officially declaring errors to be part of the magisterium which means they would officially become infallible

      Redundant. No? How do you have a non-official infallible teaching? 

    teaching, there is no more any guess work involved.

      "no more"?

    This is a huge event in history of the catholic church.

     I guess. Seems like "business as usual" this end and, oh look, people are doing and saying the exact same crap that they have been. "Vanity, vanity,... there is nothing new under the Sun..."

    No concilliar pope has ever come out and declared an error as infallible

      See "Redundant" prev. and, are you so sure about that? Is this one of those "Thuh Trinuddy ain't in duh Babble." things?

     as is

      maybe this 

    currently the case.
    In light of this, the sedevacantist position is now the only logical one to follow.

      A conclusion can be true of itself, without being a (logically) sound conclusion. The right thing the wrong way is the wrong thing, or do you just want to end up where you started or worse? Careful at the outset, with your premises. GIGO. Bad matter, no matter form. Can't baptize with Everclear, and no matter how valid one's logical form, material logic counts too.

    Matter and form aren't just the stuff of sacraments.
    You may be barking up the wrong tree, or at least doing so in the wrong way, but you're in the right grove.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 04:44:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on September 04, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
    Explain now; where are the marks of the Church, the marks that are to show us where the Truth is?
    Remember learning back in the days when it was taught in Catholic schools; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
    How can you INSIST a True Pope can be Vicar of Christ both in Truth and error?
    As DZ PLEASE above says, DANCE AROUND THAT ONE.
    Picture paints ma'am. Thank you.

    I've been told that I have a humorous character, but that doesn't make me a comedian.

    Distinctions.

    I dare anyone to show us right here, doc, page/s, paragraph and line where V"2" is said to be "a pastoral Council"

    Pls also note that the word "character" 'really means something' in the non-fake Church.

    Question, also for anyone. Would you please produce just one example of a non-pastoral council?

    I hate to break it to you ma'am, but the four marks are apparently "sooo a millennium ago".  According to the conciliar, we are 'tryin' reaallly hard to do that unity deal.'

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    Offline Bilbo

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 09:22:18 AM »
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    • V2 is referred to as a "pastoral" council because no new dogmas were defined.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Pope Francis invokes magisterial authority on Vatican II
    « Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 09:38:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bilbo on September 05, 2017, 09:22:18 AM
    V2 is referred to as a "pastoral" council because no new dogmas were defined.
    Yeah, that's not vague at all...

    It is referred to as such, at least by you. 

    Why should I either care, or find what you assert credible?

    non-responsive to what was actually posted.

    Please don't do that again.

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