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Offline ancien regime

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Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
« on: July 29, 2013, 12:49:13 PM »
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  • This is from Sandro Magister's Chiesa blog:

    Quote
    For the First Time, Francis Contradicts Benedict
    by Sandro Magister

    He has touched upon the sore spot of the Mass in the ancient rite. Ratzinger permitted its celebration for all. Bergoglio has prohibited it for one religious order that favored it

    ROME, July 29, 2013 – One point on which Jorge Mario Bergoglio was eagerly expected  to weigh in, after his election as pope, was that of the Mass in the ancient rite.

    There were those who predicted that Pope Francis would not distance himself from the stance of his predecessor. Who had liberalized the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite as an “extraordinary” form of the modern rite, with the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of July 7, 2007and with the subsequent instruction "Universæ Ecclesiæ" of May 13, 2011.

    And there were instead those who prognosticated on the part of Francis a restriction - or even a cancellation - of the possibility of celebrating the Mass with the rite prior to Vatican Council II, even at the cost of contradicting the decisions of Benedict XVI with him still alive.

    To read the decree issued by the Vatican congregation for religious shortly before the voyage of Francis in Brazil, with the explicit approval of the pope himself, one must agree more with the latter than with the former.

    The decree bears the date of July 11, 2013, the protocol number 52741/2012, and the signatures of the prefect of the congregation, Cardinal Joao Braz de Aviz, a focolarino,  and of the secretary of the same congregation, Archbishop José Rodríguez Carballo, a Franciscan.

    Braz de Aviz is the only high-ranking official in the curia of Brazilian nationality, and because of this he has accompanied Francis on his voyage to Rio de Janeiro. He has a reputation as a progressive, although that of a scatterbrain fits him better. And he will probably be one of the first to go when the reform of the curia announced by Francis takes shape.

    Rodríguez Carballo instead enjoys the pope's complete trust. His promotion as second-in-command of the congregation was backed by Francis himself at the beginning of his pontificate.

    It is difficult, therefore, to think that pope Bergoglio was unaware of what he was approving when he was presented with the decree before its publication.

    The decree installs an apostolic commissioner - in the person of the Capuchin Fidenzio Volpi - at the head of all the communities of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

    And this in itself is cause for astonishment. Because the Franciscans of the Immaculate are one of the most flourishing religious communities born in the Catholic Church in recent decades, with male and female branches, with many young vocations, spread over several continents and with a mission in Argentina as well.

    They want to be faithful to tradition, in full respect for the magisterium of the Church. So much so that in their communities they celebrate Masses both in the ancient rite and in the modern rite, as moreover do hundreds of religious communities around the world - the Benedictines of Norcia, to give just one example - applying the spirit and the letter of the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of Benedict XVI.

    But precisely this was contested by a core group of internal dissidents, who appealed to the Vatican authorities complaining of the excessive propensity of their congregation to celebrate the Mass in the ancient rite, with the effect of creating exclusion and opposition within the communities, of undermining internal unity and, worse, of weakening the more general "sentire cum Ecclesia."

    The Vatican authorities responded by sending an apostolic visitor one year ago. And now comes the appointment of the commissioner.

    But what is most astonishing are the last five lines of the decree of July 11:

    "In addition to the above, the Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

    The astonishment stems from the fact that what is decreed contradicts the dispositions given by Benedict XVI, which for the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite “sine populo" demand no previous request for authorization whatsoever:

    "Ad talem celebrationem secundum unum alterumve Missale, sacerdos nulla eget licentia, nec Sedis Apostolicae nec Ordinarii sui" (1).

    While for Masses "cum populo" they set out a few conditions, but always guaranteeing the freedom to celebrate.

    In general, against a decree of a Vatican congregation it is possible to have recourse to the supreme tribunal of the apostolic signatura, today headed by a cardinal, the American Raymond Leo Burke, considered a friend by the traditionalists.

    But if the decree is the object of approval in a specific form on the part of the pope, as it seems to be in this case, recourse is not admitted.

    The Franciscans of the Immaculate will have to comply with the prohibition on celebrating the Mass in the ancient rite beginning Sunday, August 11.

    And now what will happen, not only among them but in the whole Church?

    It was the conviction of Benedict XVI that "the two forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching." He had explained this in the heartfelt letter to the bishops of the whole world with which he had accompanied the motu proprio "Summorum Pontificum".

    But from now on this is no longer the case, at least not for all. For the Franciscans of the Immaculate, forced to celebrate the Mass only in the modern form, there remains just one way to take to heart what Benedict XVI also hoped: to "demonstrate" in this form as well, "more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage."

    The fact is that one pillar of the pontificate of Joseph Ratzinger has been cracked. By an exception that many fear - or hope - will soon become the rule.
    ________

    (1) Curiously, even six years after its publication, the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” of Benedict XVI continues to be present on the website of the Holy See only in two languages, and these among the least-known: Latin and Hungarian.


    Imagine what would be happening now if Bishop Fellay had had his way.

    Offline claudel

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 02:34:56 PM »
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  • There is one flower on this dung heap: the release refers to the True Mass (and presumably the rest of the Traditional liturgy) as the Vetus Ordo. One hardly expects accuracy or truth from this mob, and so I am left to wonder at its use of an expression that far more accurately characterizes what Papa Ben, at his Orwellian and Hegelian best/worst, called the Extraordinary Form.

    Since I decline to credit that there is a Trad deep-cover agent concealed somewhere within the Curia, this is probably just a case of someone thinking, mistakenly as it happens, that "Vetus Ordo" constitutes even more of a sneer than "Extraordinary Form"—that is, since His Humbleness is 100 percent conciliar in thinking that good equates to new and bad to, well, not new.

    These guys aren't simply transparent; they're really thick.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 02:56:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    There is one flower on this dung heap: the release refers to the True Mass (and presumably the rest of the Traditional liturgy) as the Vetus Ordo. One hardly expects accuracy or truth from this mob, and so I am left to wonder at its use of an expression that far more accurately characterizes what Papa Ben, at his Orwellian and Hegelian best/worst, called the Extraordinary Form.

    Since I decline to credit that there is a Trad deep-cover agent concealed somewhere within the Curia, this is probably just a case of someone thinking, mistakenly as it happens, that "Vetus Ordo" constitutes even more of a sneer than "Extraordinary Form"—that is, since His Humbleness is 100 percent conciliar in thinking that good equates to new and bad to, well, not new.

    These guys aren't simply transparent; they're really thick.


    They are thick!  However, their echo chamber will either ignore this or try to explain it away.  The Vetus Ordo was only the Mass of All Times and the Mass that launched ten thousand saints!  Meanwhile, the novus ordo sees shrinkage and people with minds dulled from indifferentism preached from the highest places.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 09:06:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: claudel
    There is one flower on this dung heap: the release refers to the True Mass (and presumably the rest of the Traditional liturgy) as the Vetus Ordo. One hardly expects accuracy or truth from this mob, and so I am left to wonder at its use of an expression that far more accurately characterizes what Papa Ben, at his Orwellian and Hegelian best/worst, called the Extraordinary Form.

    Since I decline to credit that there is a Trad deep-cover agent concealed somewhere within the Curia, this is probably just a case of someone thinking, mistakenly as it happens, that "Vetus Ordo" constitutes even more of a sneer than "Extraordinary Form"—that is, since His Humbleness is 100 percent conciliar in thinking that good equates to new and bad to, well, not new.

    These guys aren't simply transparent; they're really thick.


    They are thick!  However, their echo chamber will either ignore this or try to explain it away.  The Vetus Ordo was only the Mass of All Times and the Mass that launched ten thousand saints!  




    Meanwhile, the novus ordo sees shrinkage and people with minds dulled from indifferentism





    You said it.    Cardinal Dolan, pope Francis celebrate Vatican ll because their religion justifies sins  and apostacies.






    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 09:55:42 AM »
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  • .

    I find the choice of terms used by Sandro Magister rather educational:


    Quote from: ancien regime
    This is from Sandro Magister's Chiesa blog:

    Quote
    For the First Time, Francis Contradicts Benedict
    by Sandro Magister

    He has touched upon the sore spot of the Mass in the ancient rite. Ratzinger permitted its celebration for all. Bergoglio has prohibited it for one religious order that favored it

    ROME, July 29, 2013 – One point on which Jorge Mario Bergoglio was eagerly expected  to weigh in, after his election as pope, was that of the Mass in the ancient rite.

    There were those who predicted that Pope Francis would not distance himself from the stance of his predecessor. Who had liberalized the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite as an “extraordinary” form of the modern rite, with the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of July 7, 2007and with the subsequent instruction "Universæ Ecclesiæ" of May 13, 2011.

    And there were instead those who prognosticated on the part of Francis a restriction - or even a cancellation - of the possibility of celebrating the Mass with the rite prior to Vatican Council II, even at the cost of contradicting the decisions of Benedict XVI with him still alive.

    To read the decree issued by the Vatican congregation for religious shortly before the voyage of Francis in Brazil, with the explicit approval of the pope himself, one must agree more with the latter than with the former.

    The decree bears the date of July 11, 2013, the protocol number 52741/2012, and the signatures of the prefect of the congregation, Cardinal Joao Braz de Aviz, a focolarino,  and of the secretary of the same congregation, Archbishop José Rodríguez Carballo, a Franciscan.

    Braz de Aviz is the only high-ranking official in the curia of Brazilian nationality, and because of this he has accompanied Francis on his voyage to Rio de Janeiro. He has a reputation as a progressive, although that of a scatterbrain fits him better. And he will probably be one of the first to go when the reform of the curia announced by Francis takes shape.

    Rodríguez Carballo instead enjoys the pope's complete trust. His promotion as second-in-command of the congregation was backed by Francis himself at the beginning of his pontificate.

    It is difficult, therefore, to think that pope Bergoglio was unaware of what he was approving when he was presented with the decree before its publication.

    The decree installs an apostolic commissioner - in the person of the Capuchin Fidenzio Volpi - at the head of all the communities of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

    And this in itself is cause for astonishment. Because the Franciscans of the Immaculate are one of the most flourishing religious communities born in the Catholic Church in recent decades, with male and female branches, with many young vocations, spread over several continents and with a mission in Argentina as well.

    They want to be faithful to tradition, in full respect for the magisterium of the Church. So much so that in their communities they celebrate Masses both in the ancient rite and in the modern rite, as moreover do hundreds of religious communities around the world - the Benedictines of Norcia, to give just one example - applying the spirit and the letter of the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of Benedict XVI.

    But precisely this was contested by a core group of internal dissidents, who appealed to the Vatican authorities complaining of the excessive propensity of their congregation to celebrate the Mass in the ancient rite, with the effect of creating exclusion and opposition within the communities, of undermining internal unity and, worse, of weakening the more general "sentire cum Ecclesia."


    The Vatican authorities responded by sending an apostolic visitor one year ago. And now comes the appointment of the commissioner.

    But what is most astonishing are the last five lines of the decree of July 11:

    "In addition to the above, the Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

    The astonishment stems from the fact that what is decreed contradicts the dispositions given by Benedict XVI, which for the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite “sine populo" demand no previous request for authorization whatsoever:

    "Ad talem celebrationem secundum unum alterumve Missale, sacerdos nulla eget licentia, nec Sedis Apostolicae nec Ordinarii sui" (1).

    While for Masses "cum populo" they set out a few conditions, but always guaranteeing the freedom to celebrate.

    In general, against a decree of a Vatican congregation it is possible to have recourse to the supreme tribunal of the apostolic signatura, today headed by a cardinal, the American Raymond Leo Burke, considered a friend by the traditionalists.

    But if the decree is the object of approval in a specific form on the part of the pope, as it seems to be in this case, recourse is not admitted.

    The Franciscans of the Immaculate will have to comply with the prohibition on celebrating the Mass in the ancient rite beginning Sunday, August 11.

    And now what will happen, not only among them but in the whole Church?

    It was the conviction of Benedict XVI that "the two forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching." He had explained this in the heartfelt letter to the bishops of the whole world with which he had accompanied the motu proprio "Summorum Pontificum".

    But from now on this is no longer the case, at least not for all. For the Franciscans of the Immaculate, forced to celebrate the Mass only in the modern form, there remains just one way to take to heart what Benedict XVI also hoped: to "demonstrate" in this form as well, "more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage."

    The fact is that one pillar of the pontificate of Joseph Ratzinger has been cracked. By an exception that many fear - or hope - will soon become the rule.
    ________

    (1) Curiously, even six years after its publication, the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” of Benedict XVI continues to be present on the website of the Holy See only in two languages, and these among the least-known: Latin and Hungarian.



    Imagine what would be happening now if Bishop Fellay had had his way.



    The terms themselves that Sandro Magister uses offer something
    toward a better understanding of what is going on here, especially
    when considered with respect to their context, and comparison to
    their alternative (that is, the CTLM and the NovusOrdoNewmass):


    1)   the Mass in the ancient rite vs. 'mass' in the modern rite

    {Unpronounced principle:  They're both the same thing, both Mass, but
    the old is just, well, geriatric, and the new is, well, vivacious and youthful.
    Which likewise would explain why PEB16 bowed out - he's geriatric and
    the Church needs a more youthful image, even if it means puerile in
    theology, like Francis!! (Note: Francis, who apparently sidelines a
    Fokolare practitioner, Cardinal Joao Braz de Aviz, who willl be "one of the
    first to go when reform of the curia announced by Francis takes shape,"
    while "Rodríguez Carballo instead enjoys the pope's complete trust. His
    promotion as second-in-command of the congregation was backed by
    Francis himself at the beginning of his pontificate."}

    2)   an “extraordinary” form of the modern rite vs. ordinary form

    {Unpronounced principle:  the CTLM is now a subset of the Newmass, or
    takes second place to the Newmass, or is merely an alternative expression
    of the Newmass, and as such, is less up-to-date than the Newmass, and
    is therefore a deficient or lacking-in-whatever kind of Mass compared to
    the Newmass.}

    3)   the rite prior to Vatican Council II, (Implied ~ vs. rite post Vat.II)

       3  a.)  Implied: the rite of Trent vs. the rite of Vat.II

       3 b.)   Implied:  Tridentine Mass vs. Newmass


    4)   the two forms of the usage of the Roman Rite (Implied: Old vs. New)

       4  a.)   Implied:  usage in the old form vs. usage in the new form
          b.)   Implied:  the old usage vs. the new usage
              4  b. i.)   Implied:  undesirable vs. desirable
              4  b. ii.)  Implied:  unappealing vs. appealing
              4  b. iii.)  Implied:  vicious vs. virtuous
              4  b. iv.)  Implied:  bad vs. good
              4  b. v.)  Implied:  terrible vs. wonderful
              4  b. vi.)  Implied:  uncool vs. cool
              4  b. vii.)  Implied:  negative vs. positive
              4  b. viii.) Implied:  GRODY TO THE MAX vs. TUBULAR, YOU KNOW?
              4  b. ix.)  Implied:  Gag me with a Spoon! vs. So-o-o-o B*tchen!

          c.)   Implied:  the old Roman Rite vs. the New Roman Rite
          d.)   Implied:  the Mass in the ancient rite vs. 'mass' in the modern Rite
          e.)   Implied:  the Extraordinary form of Mass vs. Ordinary form (or NovusOrdo)
           f.)   Implied:  the rite prior to Vat.II vs. the rite of Vat.II
           g.)   Implied:  the rite of Trent vs. the rite of Vat.II
           h.)   Implied:  the Tridentine Mass vs. Newmass (or NovusOrdomass)
           i.)   Implied:  the VetusOrdo vs. the NovusOrdo

    5)  the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) (Implied: Vetus Ordo vs. Novus Ordo)

    {Unpronounced principle:  They're coming out into the open now,
    saying what they have long avoided to say, that the  CTLM is
    most notable for the fact of its AGE.  It is OLD, and the Newmass
    is NEW.  This is a Hegelian dialectic between old and new:  Old Mass
    vs. Newmass, or Vetus Ordo vs. Novus Ordo.}

    6)  the Mass in the ancient rite “sine populo"
    (Implied: CTLM celebrated by the lone priest vs. Mass with congregation present)

    {The subliminal effect is a distinction on two levels:  the form of
    the Mass itself, and whether or not there are any other people
    present.  Thus, it would seem that a Mass "sine populo" would
    be thought less desirable than Mass with faithful assisting.  At least
    this is the subliminal implication overall.  BTW this is a principle
    borrowed from the Eastern rites, such as Byzantine, where it is
    always preferred for the priest to say Mass with at least one
    faithful in attendance.  This was told to me in NO UNCERTAIN
    TERMS by several Maronite priests and faithful at St. Anne's Melkite
    Church in North Hollywood, CA, on Magnolia Blvd.}



    In effect, there is a subliminality that is the ultimate goal of these
    Modernists-in-disguise, to the effect that they can indoctrinate
    the masses without them knowing they're being indoctrinated.

    As TheRecusant says, you don't know that you're already a half-
    Modernist when you halfway accept the false principles of
    Modernism.  But a half-truth is a whole lie.  Therefore, a
    half-Modernist is the same thing as a whole Modernist!

    This subliminal preaching fails to define, per se, while it nonetheless
    pronounces its doctrine in a roundabout way, typical of Liberalism.


    It results in duplicity, really, but the Liberals shun this word, duplicity,
    because it is so revealing of their core nature.  

    We have PEB16 and Francis, both Modernists, but of two different
    styles.  PEB16 attempted to force the unclean spirit of Vat.II down
    our collective throats by saying that the "old" and the "new" are
    mutually compatible and enrich each other and are not contradictory,
    all of which, of course, are obvious lies.  Because, the CTLM and the
    Newmass are in fact mutually INcompatible, do NOT enrich each
    other, and are absolutely contradictory.  

    The devil would have us believe that contradiction equals agreement,
    and sin is the same thing as holiness, good is bad, yes is no, up is
    down, and wrong is right.

    How about payment is the same thing as non-payment?   How would
    the local utility company appreciate that principle at work?  How would
    your employees like that idea?  Or your bank - a positive checking
    account balance and an overdraft are the same thing?  Or an
    accountant - an overpayment and a balance due are one and the same?


    There is more to this message.  

    Latin and Hungarian ~  Why would Summorum Pontificum, six
    years after its publication (5 of which were under the author's papacy,
    PEB16), continue to be only in Latin and Hungarian on the Vatican
    website?   There must be a reason.  Hungarian was the language of
    the great Josef Cardinal Mindszenty, who was a VERY popular man.
    (But he was very UNpopular in the Vatican! -as was Padre Pio, and
    as have been so many other great saints in the history of the Church!)

    There must be something about Hungarian, or at least the Hungarian
    version of this motu proprio, that is somehow less troublesome to
    whoever it is that decides what goes on the website.  Is it the
    obscurity of the language, or is it that they want to keep Hungarian,
    Latin and Summorum Pontificum all in obscurity together?


    There is more to this message, but I have to go right now..............




    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline ancien regime

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 10:36:35 AM »
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  • I receive e-mail updates from TradiNews and today noticed a reference to an article from CNS on this subject. The article seems to explain away the core problem of the new Pope forbidding  the use of the Traditional Latin Mass for an entire community. Considering the type of "news service" that is CNS, I guess one should not be surprised at the spin of the article.

    Here it is:
    Quote

    Franciscans of the Immaculate decree worries traditionalists


    Rome, Italy, Jul 30, 2013 / 06:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- The Vatican Congregation for Religious, with the approval of Pope Francis, has appointed a commissioner to oversee the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate and has restricted their celebration of the traditional Latin Mass, touching off a storm of speculation about the reasons and broader implications.

    The news of the decree was first reported by the veteran Vatican journalist Sandro Magister, who described the move as the first time that Pope Francis has contradicted his predecessor Benedict XVI.

    “But what is most astonishing are the last five lines of the decree of July 11,” writes Magister.

    The declaration’s final paragraph reads:

    “In addition to the above, the Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

    “The astonishment stems from the fact that what is decreed contradicts the dispositions given by Benedict XVI, which for the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite ‘sine populo’ demand no previous request for authorization whatsoever,” Magister explains.

    The decree was signed by the Vatican congregation’s prefect, Cardinal Joao Braz de Viz, and its secretary, Archbishop José Rodrìguez Carballo. Capuchin Father Fidenzio Volpi was named in the declaration as the commissioner and he will be required to submit a written report every six months to the Vatican dicastery.

    The reaction in the Catholic traditionalist blogosphere to the decree has been strong.

    The blog Rorate Caeli, which focuses on the sacred liturgy, said in a four-point response that referenced Benedict XVI’s “Summorum Pontificum,” the papal document that allowed the pre-1962 Mass in Latin to be celebrated widely, that the new decree will impact one of the largest religious communities that celebrates the traditional Latin Mass.

    “One justification now being raised,” the July 29 post says, “is that the FFI's application of Summorum Pontificum had caused discord in many communities and that the Traditional Latin Mass was ‘imposed’ brutally on priests who did not want it. On the contrary, we in Rorate, who have been closely observing the FFI since 2008, can affirm that the opposite is the case: Summorum was applied in a very gradual manner … .”

    But the spokesman for the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, Father Alfonso Bruno, told CNA July 29 that “more than 80 percent of the friars appreciate the intervention of the Church.”

    In his estimation, the “problem is not the Holy Mass usus antiquior,” which he described as “only the tip of the iceberg.”

    Fr. Bruno pointed to a “small group in power” within the religious congregation that is being influenced by Mother Francesca Perillo, who is “very close” with Lefebvrist groups. He is worried that Mother Perillo, who is in charge of those sisters who live in hermitages, and her followers could fall into “heresy and disobedience.”


    Mother Perillo could not be reached for comment before publication time.

    Father Angelo M. Geiger, who is the General Delegate of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate in the United States, said in a July 29 post on his Mary Victrix blog that Magister’s piece “is an unfortunate instance of an overeager journalist sensationalizing something he can only speculate about.”

    “The restrictions on our community are specific to us and have been put in place for reasons specific to us,” Fr. Geiger remarked.

    He also directly addressed the question of whether Pope Francis had contradicted his predecessor.

    “Pope Francis has not contradicted Pope Benedict. The visitation of our community began under Pope Benedict and the Commission was recommended by Cardinal João Braz de Aviz who was appointed to the Congregation by Pope Benedict,” he wrote.

    Fr. Geiger said that “what is being reported in the press and what has actually transpired within our community over the course of a number of years are two different things.”

    Fathers Geiger and Bruno both finished their remarks by emphasizing their trust in the Church and in Pope Francis.

    “We are in peace because we are in the hands of our mother Church, by a Pope that we love and appreciate so much,” Fr. Bruno said.


    So there it is, it's all the fault of those nasty "Lefebvrists." Now everyone will see where all this nonsense of allowing the "usus antiquior," or "extraordinary form, " or "Vetus Ordo" leads.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 11:03:45 AM »
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  • In the new church structure, this group, FFI for short, was the second largest group using the TLM.  They have approx. 130 priests and this group was blossoming as another FSSP without actually being a knock-off of the SSPX.  This group started strictly novus ordo but has become traditionalist.  

    The whole thing smells of a sting operation.  A new boss replaces the old boss and a handful of new postulants start a whining session.  Then, in comes the new pope, and - bingo - it's a blanket order to celebrate only the new mass.  

    This was a sting operation.  The troublemakers were planted there for the sole purpose of negating this group.  Now, I realize they are novus ordites at heart and that this group was probably just a bunch of role players - presiders of the assembly wondering how it would feel if they beefed up their floor show - but it does reveal how the new church works.  Or at the very least shows the their tolerance for tradition is.  One or two complaints against the Motu Proprio suffices to get it suppressed, whereas over 30 years of complaints even from people who taught latin at the university level until the "for all" was returned to "for many".  




     

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 11:24:53 AM »
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  • Homosexual priests, si si

    The Latin mass,  no no
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)


    Offline ancien regime

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 12:17:56 PM »
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  • UPDATE from Rorate Caeli posted below. The decree is only available in Italian at this time. If someone here can translate Italian, please go to Rorate Caeli to obtain a copy.

    Quote
    IMPORTANT: Pope Francis severely restricts the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass, imposes the Novus Ordo on all their priests

    Rorate note: A clear attempt to minimize the importance of this decree is taking place here and there in the blogosphere, as expected. We are being told that this isn't really something to worry about; that this is just a particular situation, limited to a particular religious institution, and has nothing to do with how Pope Francis views Summorum.

    Against these manifestations of the spirit of denial that we have come to know so well since February 28 of this year, we raise the following points.

    1) First, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are not just a small religious Order or congregation occupying a tiny niche of the Traditional Catholic world; with more than 130 priests, they are the second largest canonically-regular religious congregation or society among those that primarily or de facto exclusively offer the Traditional Latin Mass. (The FSSP is the largest.) The family of female monasteries and convents under the spiritual care of the FFI have no other parallel in the Traditional Catholic world outside the SSPX. Anything that restricts the ability  of the FFI to offer the Traditional Latin Mass will of necessity be deeply felt by the Traditional Catholic world.

    2) One justification now being raised is that the FFI's application of Summorum Pontificum had caused discord in many communities and that the Traditional Latin Mass was "imposed" brutally on priests who did not want it. On the contrary, we in Rorate, who have been closely observing the FFI since 2008, can affirm that the opposite is the case: Summorum was applied in a very gradual manner by the FFI, the Novus Ordo was never forbidden in their houses and sanctuaries, and in many parts of the world the FFI continued to offer the Novus Ordo predominantly. It ought to be noted as well that the FFI, in their promotion of the "Forma Extraordinaria", have been remarkably free of polemics and public attacks on the Novus Ordo.

    3) Yet another justification now being used is that this action is acceptable because the FFI were not founded with the TLM as an essential part of their charism. This excuse is incomprehensible as it completely ignores the rights given by Summorum Pontificum to religious priests. Furthermore, if the dissatisfaction of a few is enough to get a whole religious congregation or Order restricted from making use of Summorum Pontificum, this opens an easy way by which the opponents of the old Mass can eventually expel the TLM from all non-"Ecclesia Dei" institutes.

    4) Lastly, and most importantly, the decree -- by specifically restricting the Traditional Latin Mass -- is a clear indication that it is seen as something problematic, something that must be excised from the life of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. If this whole crisis in the FFI is not really about the Traditional Latin Mass, then why is it the target of exclusion and of restrictions, and why does the decree devote so much space to it, and why does the decree take the trouble of noting that this restriction was personally commanded by the Holy Father himself? If the crisis in the FFI is due to the misbehavior of some, then why is the deprivation of the Traditional Latin Mass extended to all?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 06:24:34 PM »
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  • Let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no' and anything else is of the
    devil....... but even the devil can quote Scripture......


    Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

    Homosexual priests: si si !

    The Latin Mass: no no !




    Thank you so much, VCR -- I would never have known that what the
    corruptors of Tradition are doing is SCRIPTURAL, without your help.  





    News Flash:  

    My daughter told me, with frustration, "I just wish that everyone
    would stop coming up with their announcement that they've been
    homosexual for many years and they've been suppressing it all this
    time!"  

    I told her, the reason there is a trend like that is because it makes
    them money to say it.  And, if it's profitable, "Must be doing something
    right!"  Because the love of money is the root of all evil.  






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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 07:29:41 PM »
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  • .


    They're doing a good job at RC asking these questions.

    We can answer them all, of course, but how about if we were to hear
    HEBF or his henchmen answer them?

    I can easily imagine the replies you would get, if any:  

    You should ask that of someone who is involved with the situation,
    because I have nothing to do with it.

    The problems that other religious communities have are not our problems.  
    How would you like it if we made our problems into theirs?  

    Life has it's difficulties! (HEBF's answer to a question about the SSPX having
    to become subject to local Modernist bishops)




    Quote from: ancien regime
    UPDATE from Rorate Caeli posted below. The decree is only available in Italian at this time. If someone here can translate Italian, please go to Rorate Caeli to obtain a copy.

    Quote
    IMPORTANT: Pope Francis severely restricts the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass, imposes the Novus Ordo on all their priests

    Rorate note: A clear attempt to minimize the importance of this decree is taking place here and there in the blogosphere, as expected. We are being told that this isn't really something to worry about; that this is just a particular situation, limited to a particular religious institution, and has nothing to do with how Pope Francis views Summorum.



    Dear Denizen of Menzingen (DDM),

    Why is a clear attempt to minimize the importance of the new decree
    of Pope Francis taking place all over the world?  Do you think this is
    another sign, as HEBF said, of the little sprouts of springtime in the
    conversion of Rome?  How can this not be something to worry about,
    DDM?  Why do you suppose they are telling us that this attack against
    Tradition is 'very very limited, very limited' to a particular religious
    institution, and has nothing to do with how Francis views Summorum?



    Quote
    Quote
    Against these manifestations of the spirit of denial that we have come to know so well since February 28 of this year, we raise the following points.

    1) First, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are not just a small religious Order or congregation occupying a tiny niche of the Traditional Catholic world; with more than 130 priests, they are the second largest canonically-regular religious congregation or society among those that primarily or de facto exclusively offer the Traditional Latin Mass. (The FSSP is the largest.) The family of female monasteries and convents under the spiritual care of the FFI have no other parallel in the Traditional Catholic world outside the SSPX. Anything that restricts the ability of the FFI to offer the Traditional Latin Mass will of necessity be deeply felt by the Traditional Catholic world.



    That's a pretty good intro, RC -- did you make that up??  

    DDM,
    Do you suppose that it's true that the FFI is just a tiny sliver of Tradition?
    Do you know, DDM, how many priests they have?  Do you know, DDM, if
    there is another congregation larger than the FFI, other than the FSSP?  Do
    you think, DDM, that this decree might be found later to apply as well to the
    FSSP?  Do you think, DDM, that this decree can NEVER have any effect on
    the FSSP?  Are you willing to describe how you think this decree might affect
    the FSSP in the future?  What about the congregations smaller than the FSSP,
    DDM, what about them?  Do you know, DDM, that there is no other
    canonically-regular religious congregation or society that largely offers the
    Traditional Latin Mass?  How would you like to have the SSPX canonically
    normalized now, DDM?  Would this be a good time for that, as HEBF said it
    would be, DDM?  Why not, DDM? Was HEBF telling a lie, DDM?  No?  Why not?
    How is what HEBF not a lie, DDM?  Do you think that anything that restricts
    the ability of the FFI to offer the TLM will of be felt by the Traditional Catholic
    world, DDM?  What do you suppose Pope Francis is trying to accomplish with
    this, DDM?  Can you think of a GOOD REASON to do this, DDM, for the pope
    to issue this decree?  

    Can't you just hear their answers?  Do you even have to wonder what
    they will be?  

    We should have lists of questions like this, on all manner of topics, with
    the DDM answers on the back of the 3x5 index card, if you will, and ask
    Accordistas if they know the answers.  That would be a fun game.  Just be
    sure that you smile, and have a GOOD TIME WITH IT, because if you get
    aggravated or tense, or react with resolve and passion, they will immediately
    accuse you of being "HATEFUL."  That's right.  Like Our Lord when he chased
    out demons, he was hateful, right?  RIGHT?  No?  What about when he
    chased out the money changers in the Temple, was he 'hateful' then?  No?

    Oh, I see.  That was 'different.'  (And they'll be ready with their canned
    answer for why that was 'different.')

    How would you like to face your particular judgment with that one
    stuck to your soul like a tattoo or a barnacle, or a sucker fish or a leech,
    or, try this one on for size:  like a BEAR TRAP sprung on your leg and the
    anchor chain leads right to HELL!  



    Quote
    Quote
    2) One justification now being raised is that the FFI's application of Summorum Pontificum had caused discord in many communities and that the Traditional Latin Mass was "imposed" brutally on priests who did not want it. On the contrary, we in Rorate, who have been closely observing the FFI since 2008, can affirm that the opposite is the case: Summorum was applied in a very gradual manner by the FFI, the Novus Ordo was never forbidden in their houses and sanctuaries, and in many parts of the world the FFI continued to offer the Novus Ordo predominantly. It ought to be noted as well that the FFI, in their promotion of the "Forma Extraordinaria", have been remarkably free of polemics and public attacks on the Novus Ordo.



    You can't blame them, Rorate.  All these years, the Concilarists have been
    answering questions about the lessening of the Faith in the conciliar church,
    and their answer has always been, "But no! Over here in Zimbabwe, we have
    growth!  And here in Papyete and in Borneo we have thriving new parishes,
    and over here..." and so on.  You can't blame them for being tired of all the
    excuss, can you, Rorate?  Don't you think they'd like to turn it around now
    when it suits their purpose, and look at all the unhappiness that's abounding?

    Especially if they can blame it all on the TLM!  Yeah!  That's the ticket!  


    Quote
    Quote
    3) Yet another justification now being used is that this action is acceptable because the FFI were not founded with the TLM as an essential part of their charism. This excuse is incomprehensible as it completely ignores the rights given by Summorum Pontificum to religious priests. Furthermore, if the dissatisfaction of a few is enough to get a whole religious congregation or Order restricted from making use of Summorum Pontificum, this opens an easy way by which the opponents of the old Mass can eventually expel the TLM from all non-"Ecclesia Dei" institutes.



    Of course they weren't  The FFI wasn't founded in the Church of the
    Catholic faith, it was founded in the church of Vatican II!  Now, why didn't
    I think of that???!!!  

    But here I must beg to differ, Rorate, because it wasn't Summorum
    Pontificum
    that has been the source of any priests' rights.  No, it hasn't.
    It has been all along, and it will be "IN PERPETUITY," QUO PRIMUM, that
    gives all priests for all time the full and complete right to offer the CTLM,
    the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass of all time, for the salvation of souls
    and the freedom and exaltation of Holy Mother Church, as the Mass says.

    We don't need no Summorum Pontificum
    We don't need no thought control
    No dark sarcasm in the pressroom
    Holy Father leave Quo Primum alone
    Hey! Holy Father, leave the Faith alone
    All in all it's just another brick in the wall
    All in all you're just another brick in the wall  


    Quote
    Quote
    4) Lastly, and most importantly, the decree -- by specifically restricting the Traditional Latin Mass -- is a clear indication that it is seen as something problematic, something that must be excised from the life of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. If this whole crisis in the FFI is not really about the Traditional Latin Mass, then why is it the target of exclusion and of restrictions, and why does the decree devote so much space to it, and why does the decree take the trouble of noting that this restriction was personally commanded by the Holy Father himself? If the crisis in the FFI is due to the misbehavior of some, then why is the deprivation of the Traditional Latin Mass extended to all?



    DDM,
    Can you give one good reason for the Pope taking this opportunity to
    RESTRICT the Latin Mass when he should be making it widely available?
    I mean, isn't that what all the Popes in history have done, except, that
    is, Paul VI of infalicitous memory?  And perhaps JPII the inGrate?  



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #11 on: August 01, 2013, 04:36:33 AM »
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  • How many ways do we have to name the Canonized Traditional
    Latin Mass
    without saying that?


    1   Mass in the ancient rite

     (alternate)   Masses (both) in the ancient rite (and in the modern rite)

    2   Mass in the ancient rite “sine populo"

    3   Mass in the ancient rite “cum populo"

    4   (an) “extraordinary” form of the modern rite

    5   the rite prior to Vatican Council II

    6   the liturgy according to the extraordinary rite

    7   (the use of) the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo)

    8   Vetus Ordo

    10 the older usage of the two forms of the Roman Rite

    11 Mass (only) in the old form

    12 the former usage (of the Roman Rite)

    13 usus antiquior


    Diversity of Disinformation


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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 02:59:14 PM »
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  • I know of a young gentleman (an indulterer alas but I pray for him) who is very interested in pursuing a vocation with the FFMI. It is unfortunate he does not see the real heart of the problem, although in honest charity I do try and point out little difficulties, and pray that he and others like him can make the realization that 2+2=4, to use a metaphor for reality, rather than the constant denial.

    "I read that news one day, oh boy.
    About Frankie and the TLM.
    Although NOs are rather said,
    I simply could not laugh,
    I mean, the bishop's dancing photograph.
    I want to burn....them......all." :heretic:
    This is a serious journey,not a Hobbit walking party.

    Offline reconquest

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 05:05:49 PM »
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  • Rampolla is starting to look like a great choice in comparison.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline inprincipio

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    Pope Francis cracks down on the ancient rite
    « Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 03:50:50 PM »
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  • I think this is what "Pope Francis" likes....Who could forget it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xN4kEWzAzFY#at=44
    Amen quippe dico vobis donec transeat caelum et terra iota unum aut unus apex non praeteribit a lege donec omnia fiant  (For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. )

     

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