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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
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Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 25696 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #255 on: Today at 01:52:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 01:40:12 PM
    If you are not a member, you are not a part of. If you are not a member you cannot be inside. If you are separated from, you are not a member. If you are separated from, you cannot be a part of, or inside.
    As Pius XII teaches,  "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have [...] not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body..."

    You are trying to make a distinction when there is none to be made
    One who the Church Excommunicates is a separated member. You fail to make this distinction. 


    Quote
    The censure is lifted, the heretic is now a member again. The reason is evident. A non-member cannot partake in the sacraments.
    Nope. You still don't have it. Tell that same thing to a heretic priest administering extreme unction.

    Quote

    I say: What do you make of those validly baptised as infants in heretical sects? They were made Catholic by their baptism, but adhere to their false sect when they reach the age of reason. Are they still Catholic?

    You say: As St. Thomas said: "Baptism without faith is of no value." They are not members after the age of reason if they remain adhering to their false sect.

    I say: Not members, okay. But I asked if they are Catholic. Are they?

    You say: No, because they never were, as St. Thomas said: "Baptism without faith is of no value."

    I say: Huh? You're saying infants validly baptised in heretical/schismatic sects are not Catholics?


    You say: No, I never said that - you are falsely saying I said that

    As they say: Make it make sense
    As baptized infants they were Catholics until they attain the age of reason. Then they need to be raised in the faith in order to be Catholic. If they were never raised in the faith FROM THE AGE OF REASON, then never were Catholic - since the age of reason. That's what I meant. 
    It should be obvious to you that baptized infants are Catholic but as infants, not obliged to have the faith. 
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #256 on: Today at 01:59:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 01:52:49 PM
    One who the Church Excommunicates is a separated member. You fail to make this distinction. 
    That's not what Pius XII said.  He said those who have separated themselves, are NOT members.

    Quote
    Nope. You still don't have it. Tell that same thing to a heretic priest administering extreme unction.
    Canon law does not make the heretic priest a member.  Canon Law simply allows the sacrament to be licit FOR THIS ONE PARTICULAR ACT.  

    This is because a heretic priest still has sacramental powers, even if not a member.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #257 on: Today at 02:00:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 01:48:15 PM
    You're trying to make a distinction, with no conclusion and no facts.

    You're arguing that Pius XII meant that OTHER sins are similar to heresy, schism or apostasy.  But he doesn't list those.  Nor does he make a reference to a list that exists.  Your distinction fails. 

    You have no proof that this distinction is valid.  Making a distinction without an explanation is illogical.
    PPXII said: "For not every sin." That is what he means. Live with it. It does not matter how badly you want what he said to mean "For no other sin," simply accept that he would have said that if that's what he meant.   
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #258 on: Today at 02:02:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 02:00:45 PM
    PPXII said: "For not every sin." That is what he means. Live with it. It does not matter how badly you want what he said to mean "For no other sin," simply accept that he would have said that if that's what he meant. 
    :laugh1:  There are various ways to write the same thing.  You're insane.  Go ask 10 other people what that ENTIRE sentence means, and get back to us.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #259 on: Today at 02:04:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 02:02:56 PM
    :laugh1:  There are various ways to write the same thing.  You're insane.  Go ask 10 other people what that ENTIRE sentence means, and get back to us.
    I already know what it means, you should too. But don't ask 10 other people or you'll get 10 different answers LOL
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #260 on: Today at 02:05:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 01:59:32 PM
    That's not what Pius XII said.  He said those who have separated themselves, are NOT members.
    Canon law does not make the heretic priest a member.  Canon Law simply allows the sacrament to be licit FOR THIS ONE PARTICULAR ACT. 

    This is because a heretic priest still has sacramental powers, even if not a member.
    Amazing.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #261 on: Today at 02:07:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 01:52:49 PM
    One who the Church Excommunicates is a separated member. You fail to make this distinction.
    "Separated member": Not actually a thing

    What Pius XII taught: "Members"

    What he didn't teach: "Separated members"

    The only distinction to be made is between members and non-members. You are literally just making things up

    Quote
    Nope. You still don't have it. Tell that same thing to a heretic priest administering extreme unction.

    Tell what? If I don't get it, please explain it to me..because I truly do not understand what you are trying to say

    Quote
    As baptized infants they were Catholics until they attain the age of reason. Then they need to be raised in the faith in order to be Catholic. If they were never raised in the faith FROM THE AGE OF REASON, then never were Catholic - since the age of reason. That's what I meant.
    It should be obvious to you that baptized infants are Catholic but as infants, not obliged to have the faith
    Okay, I agree. But I (understandably, I think) read "they never were" to simply mean "they never were"
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #262 on: Today at 02:21:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 02:05:32 PM
    Amazing.
    It's not amazing, because it makes a distinction between the sacramental power (i.e. from the Church) and the status of a person (i.e. their soul).  You are lumping it all together.

    Sacraments are of divine origin (from Christ).  The Church can 'bind or loose' (canon law/papal decisions).  

    An atheist (non-member) can validly baptize, just like a heretic priest (non-member) can absolve sins.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #263 on: Today at 02:23:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 02:07:38 PM
    "Separated member": Not actually a thing... You are literally just making things up
    Yep.

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    Tell what? If I don't get it, please explain it to me..because I truly do not understand what you are trying to say
    He doesn't want to admit that heretics lose membership, so he keeps switching the argument from 'catholic' to 'member' and back again, to avoid the issue.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #264 on: Today at 05:28:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 02:23:29 PM
    Yep.
    He doesn't want to admit that heretics lose membership, so he keeps switching the argument from 'catholic' to 'member' and back again, to avoid the issue.
    If I had to guess, it is because of the Conciliar pope problem. For whatever reason he holds that there is absolutely no possibility of them not being true popes.

    They clearly do not "profess the faith", which Pius XII taught was necessary for Church membership. But how can a Pope not be a member of the Church? Or not be Catholic?

    In order to square that circle, he must come up with two novel theories:

    1)It is impossible to cease to be Catholic 

    2)It is impossible to lose membership in the Church..you just become a "separated member"...separated from the Church...but somehow still a part of...and somehow still inside...

    Instead of applying what Pius XII really taught to the Conciliar popes, he is forced (in order to maintain that they are true popes) to work backwards from the assumption they are true popes to create a novel understanding of what Pius XII taught


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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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