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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 24520 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #210 on: Yesterday at 10:07:22 AM »
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  • Meanwhile Catholic Knight knows better than Suarez.

    Pope Pius XII knows better than Suarez.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #211 on: Yesterday at 10:29:22 AM »
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  • Pope Pius XII knows better than Suarez.
    Agreed.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #212 on: Yesterday at 11:41:01 AM »
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  • Agreed.

    But Pope Stubborn knows better than Pope Pius XII.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #213 on: Yesterday at 12:50:10 PM »
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  • But Pope Stubborn knows better than Pope Pius XII.
    Pope Catholic Knight knows less than Pope Pius XII.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #214 on: Yesterday at 01:04:43 PM »
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  • Pope Catholic Knight knows less than Pope Pius XII.
    Stubborn, are we to take these words to mean exactly what they say?

    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis 

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #215 on: Yesterday at 01:29:02 PM »
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  • Stubborn, are we to take these words to mean exactly what they say?
    I do. I also understand Suarez's position and agree with Suarez's  "Once a Catholic always a Catholic." IOW, as he said in your quote, mortal sinners separate themselves from the unity of the Body. The Church is not the one who does the separating. 



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #216 on: Yesterday at 01:39:06 PM »
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  • I do. I also understand Suarez's position and agree with Suarez's  "Once a Catholic always a Catholic." IOW, as he said in your quote, mortal sinners separate themselves from the unity of the Body. The Church is not the one who does the separating.
    So you agree that someone who doesn't profess the true faith is not a member of the Church?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #217 on: Yesterday at 03:14:01 PM »
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  • So you agree that someone who doesn't profess the true faith is not a member of the Church?
    If that person was never Catholic, I agree. If that person professed the true faith then committed the sin of heresy, that person is a Catholic with the sin of heresy on his soul. Should he decide to repent, he can go to confession and be absolved, something only members can do. The nature of the sin makes this unlikely.

    One must accept that heresy is a sin, the worst of all the sins, but that is what heresy is, a sin, one that Catholics can always be absolved of in confession. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #218 on: Yesterday at 03:34:04 PM »
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  • If that person was never Catholic, I agree. If that person professed the true faith then committed the sin of heresy, that person is a Catholic with the sin of heresy on his soul. Should he decide to repent, he can go to confession and be absolved, something only members can do. The nature of the sin makes this unlikely.

    One must accept that heresy is a sin, the worst of all the sins, but that is what heresy is, a sin, one that Catholics can always be absolved of in confession.
    OK, regardless of whether you hold any particular heretic to be Catholic or not, Pope Pius XII teaches that membership in the Church is limited only those who:

    1) Are baptized

    And

    2) Profess the true Faith

    And

    3) Have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body

    Or

    4) Have not been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed


    So, if any one of the four things is lacking a person is not a member of the Church.

    Do you agree with this?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #219 on: Today at 07:43:35 AM »
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  • Pope Catholic Knight knows less than Pope Pius XII.

    I am not the one contradicting Pope Pius XII; Pope Stubborn is.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #220 on: Today at 10:07:50 AM »
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  • OK, regardless of whether you hold any particular heretic to be Catholic or not, Pope Pius XII teaches that membership in the Church is limited only those who:

    1) Are baptized

    And

    2) Profess the true Faith

    And

    3) Have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body

    Or

    4) Have not been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed


    So, if any one of the four things is lacking a person is not a member of the Church.

    Do you agree with this?
    As long as #1 and #2 is present, that person is a member of the Church.

    #3 is the definition of excommunication: "Excommunication is the gravest of all canonical punishments ; it separates the delinquent from the communion of the faithful, and, practically speaking, deprives him of all the rights of membership in the Church of Christ." Still a member.

    #4 is the censure of excommunication decreed by a Church authority. Still a member. 

    You have a conundrum, which is why you simply ignore it.....your conundrum is: If a Catholic committed the sin of heresy, that person is a Catholic with the sin of heresy on his soul. Should he decide to repent, he can go to confession and be absolved, something only members can do. The nature of the sin makes this unlikely.

    One must accept that heresy is a sin, the worst of all the sins, but that is what heresy is, a sin, one that Catholics can always be absolved of in confession. 

    All you gotta do is use yourself as an example, it is not complicated. You would need to explain how you (only using you for the purpose of an example only, no insult intended), a Catholic with the sin of heresy on your soul, can go to confession at all, and also be absolved of the sin of heresy if you are not a member of the Church.

    I expect you will continue to ignore this, but there it is regardless.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #221 on: Today at 10:41:39 AM »
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  • As long as #1 and #2 is present, that person is a member of the Church.
    Except that is not what Pope Pius XII teaches.

    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    Broken down into the four factors Pope Pius XII gives:

    #1
    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized...

    #2
    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] profess the true faith...

    #3
    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body...

    #4
    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have [...] not been [...] excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed


    If even ONE of these is lacking, someone is not a member of the Church. That is what Pope Pius XII teaches. So what you say regarding #3 and #4 simply does not follow.

    You say as long as #1 and #2 are present a person is a member of the Church. Do you believe that heretics and schismatics "profess the true Faith"(#2)?

    Quote
    You have a conundrum, which is why you simply ignore it.....your conundrum is: If a Catholic committed the sin of heresy, that person is a Catholic with the sin of heresy on his soul. Should he decide to repent, he can go to confession and be absolved, something only members can do. The nature of the sin makes this unlikely.

    All you gotta do is use yourself as an example, it is not complicated. You would need to explain how you (only using you for the purpose of an example only, no insult intended), a Catholic with the sin of heresy on your soul, can go to confession at all, and also be absolved of the sin of heresy if you are not a member of the Church.

    I expect you will continue to ignore this, but there it is regardless.

    No, I have not ignored it. I actually responded to it and I do not believe I received a reply.

    Stubborn, does or does not a heretic have to abjure his heresy before being able to receive absolution?

    Does or does not a heretic have any censures/penalties/etc. against him lifted (not a sacrament) after having abjured his heresy and prior to receiving absolution of his sins (a sacrament)?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #222 on: Today at 10:52:13 AM »
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  • No, I have not ignored it. I actually responded to it and I do not believe I received a reply.   

    Stubborn, does or does not a heretic have to abjure his heresy before being able to receive absolution?

    Does or does not a heretic have any censures/penalties/etc. against him lifted (not a sacrament) after having abjured his heresy and prior to receiving absolution of his sins (a sacrament)?
    I found where you responded, and I replied to your response, which answers the questions in this post.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #223 on: Today at 11:07:31 AM »
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  • I found where you responded, and I replied to your response, which answers the questions in this post.

    Well, I'm not seeing it. This is what I posted:

    Quote
    >Heretic enters confessional. *No sacrament at this point*

    >Heretic abjures his heresy and confesses other sins if necessary. It is evident he is no longer a heretic *No sacrament at this point*

    >Censure is lifted, former heretic is now a member of the Church again *Still no sacrament at this point*

    >Former heretic receives absolution *The Sacrament is effected, which only Catholics (/members of the Church) can receive*


    Does or does not Pope Pius XII teach:

    Quote
    1) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized...

    2) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] profess the true faith...

    3) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body...

    4) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have [...] not been [...] excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    And do you believe that heretics and schismatics "profess the true Faith"(#2)?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #224 on: Today at 12:29:56 PM »
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  • Well, I'm not seeing it. This is what I posted:
    >Heretic enters confessional. *No sacrament at this point*

    >Heretic abjures his heresy and confesses other sins if necessary. It is evident he is no longer a heretic *No sacrament at this point*

    >Censure is lifted, former heretic is now a member of the Church again *Still no sacrament at this point*

    >Former heretic receives absolution *The Sacrament is effected, which only Catholics (/members of the Church) can receive
    Replace the word "heretic" with what a heretic is: "Sinner." Hopefully that will clear it up for you.

    Otherwise, a Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy could not receive the Last Rites, which they can even when unconscious and dying without any abjuration, and can even receive them from a priest who is also an excommunicant for heresy, schism or apostacy. Clear now?

    Quote
    1) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized...

    2) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] profess the true faith...

    3) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who [...] have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body...

    4) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have [...] not been [...] excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    And do you believe that heretics and schismatics "profess the true Faith"(#2)?
    Schismatics: it is possible that Schismatics profess the true faith -  The problem with Schismatics is that they refuse to submit to the authority of the pope or to hold communion with members of the Church subject to him. Schism differs from heresy and Apostasy, but schism very often leads to heresy and Apostasy.

    Heretics: No. Heretics profess things contrary to the true faith.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse